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Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lists

 Post subject: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lists
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Some substantial changes have been made.

As per the recent activity the special rules are now the preliminary ones that Jaldon is looking to playtest and the Army Construction falls generally in line with Neals suggestions.

The biggest change though is merging of the two lists into a Jormungandr only list. It is essentially the Jormungandr list in the new form with limited aspects of the Draconis list allowing upto 50% of the list to be made up of DC3 or higher WE. It's positioned as an AV/WE heavy list (from Draconis) but retains the capability to put a lot critters on the table (from Jormungandr).


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Interesting. Only skimmed it but i already like the Lormungandr list :)
Am i correct that only creatures with Brood AND Without Number are placed in the Spawning pool after being killed? And the only way to spwan an AV Brood creature is that it has to be killed before?

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:49 am 
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Only creatures with Brood can be spawned. Only creatures with "Without Number" go back into the spawning pool when killed (Currently only Termagants and Hormagaunts). Any Inf and LV brood creatures can be placed into the spawning pool at the start of the game instead of being placed into a synapse swarm. This essentially means that AV creatures cannot be spawned (the Brood ability on the AV creatures is somewhat redundant and could be removed).

Essentially
Termagants and Hormagaunts can start in the spawning pool and are placed back there when killed
Termagants, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Biovores, Hiveguard, Raveners, Pyrovore and Venomthropes can be placed into the spawning pool at the start of the game but are not "recycled".
Carnifex and Tyrannofex are not currently spawnable as they can't be placed into the spawning pool (This is up for consideration, I may move them into the spawnable but not recyclable catagory above as long as there are no problems with the spawning system. It spawns on a per stand basis not on 1/2/3 sliding scale for Inf/LV/AV, it may balance out with no recycling but I'm not sure)

There's also the Mawloc that may make it in as a Trygon variant with 4+CC, no FF capability, no Bio-Electric attack and only 1 MW attack but First Strike as a unit ability (Essentially 3 regular attacks and 1 MW attack all with first strike at 4+ CC).


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:57 am 
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Ah thats clears it up. You really should remove Brood form AV then. And perhabs clear it up in the special rules section.

Adding the Mawloc would be cool if only for completeness :)

And wouldn't some First-Strike attack on the Harpye be justified considering her Piercing Wail ability in Wh40k?

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Hey all!

I'll be reading and reviewing these lists when I get back at the start of August.

Thanks for keeping things alive during my absence!


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:24 pm 
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I've got the Mawloc in a newer draft. The Harpy probably warrants a first strike CC attack (Not that it's CC is any good) more for completeness than use.

I'll add a note in the spawning rule on only allowing Inf and LV Brood creatures to spawn as the Brood rule is used in the expendable rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Updated first post with v0.3. Quite a lot of changes and has the complete set of 'new' fleet creatures.
Probably the main changes are LV to Inf on everything except Tyrant/Hive Guard (LV means no special rule is needed for shieldwall) and some alterations to represent units of 3 Inf rather than 1 LV. Full Bio-Titan weapon choice, WE Tervigon and Tyrannofex and a full battlefield AA rule for Meiotic spores (with gargoyles losing AA attack and gaining a pip of CC to CC5+). Most importantly the document has shrunk down to a more manageable 12 pages (split into 2 Army lists, 1 Special Rules, 1 Objectives and 8 units pages).


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Likely to take this out tomorrow for a spin if I can come up w/ 3000 points of it that fits my limited model collection. I will let you know my thoughts after the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:57 am 
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Played w/ a 3k list based on Jormugandr against 3k of Black Legion last evening. After 3 turns I was ahead 1-0 on BTS but we couldn't do the 4th turn due to time constraints. Here are some comments:
- Overall very easy to build an army as the flexibility of the formations allows for a shopping-list style quick build, i.e. pick a bunch of synapse groups, pick a bunch of broods and you're done pretty much.
- 1/4 limit on Independents seemed a bit harsh as most other lists have a 1/3 limit on their specials. As all AA for these nids is on the independents part of the list (save for the Dominatrix), then that's a few points that are cut off from the Independent allocation straightaway (or you can go AA-free of course at your own risk). Any reason not to allow 1/3? It's not like this section has any game-breaking stuff anyway imo.
- BTS rule - seems unfair that normal armies count all their highest cost fms as BTS and the 'nid only counts 1 of his own fms w/ the most synapse creatures.
- SR of 1. Might as well say the nid player will lose the strategy roll every single turn. Any reason why this is so low? Not being familiar w/ all the other army lists out there, are any as low as the Nids?
- Expendable is massive in a game. In the match last night I had zero synapse fms broken. The only fms that broke were the genestealers and a Harridan fm. Otherwise, unless the synapse goes down, the nids are virtually unbreakable due to their high numbers and resilience to BMs. Zoanthrope spamming can take care of the synapse issue, especially as zoans can hide amongst the gaunts. Easiest way to break these fms would be by engaging them, but that's a dubious tactic against nids most of the time. As the nid player it did feel a bit wrong to be so invulnerable to shooting... especially as I could then rally at +2 and was fielding Tyrants w/ Leader.
- Garrisoning and movement. I believe one of the nid problems is mobility, i.e. having CC units w/ a move of 15cms and nothing to transport them like the carnifex, the tyrants, etc. A solution to this his of course garrisoning stuff which usually you can do up to halfway up the table setting up turn 2 and sometimes turn 1 assaults. Now both Leviathan and the 9.2.1 list control the massive garrisoning of nid fms by forcing them to have gaunts, gargoyles or raveners in their synapse fms. These units have a move of 20cm so cannot garrison. Jormungandr on the other hand lets me build fms pretty much how I like (if I'm reading page 3 correctly) so I can do a swarm w/ say 2 Malanthropes and 6 carnifexes and garrison that halfway up the table. The compulsory gaunts I can then place in the normal deployment zone after assigning them to another fm. I haven't played EA enough to determine whether this is unbalanced or not but something to bear in mind.
- Spawning proved irrelevant in the game as the limit on spawned units capped it dramatically. I didn't use the big breeders though, like the Tervigon and the Dominatrix. This sentence might need rewording "(Note that only Inf and LV Brood creatures may be placed into the spawning pool at the start of the game, AV Brood creatures may not spawn)" as I think the first part of it is enough. Besides there aren't any AV w/ the Without Number rule so it's pointless to say AV can't spawn.
- Didn't use any Tunnelers so no comment on those.
- Used 2*4 Meiotic Spores. Looked good on paper, but my opponent brought no aircraft except for drop pods. So those were 200 points wasted. All the other AA units I know about in other lists have some use, even if limited, when there aren't any enemy aircraft. The Spores on the other hand are useless as they aren't even on the table to contest objectives. So it becomes a rock/paper/scissors call on whether to take spores or not. This doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game, where force building decisions can be better or worse but even a Hydra can do something against enemy infantry and contest objectives. I'd consider changing these to either the 9.2.1 version (which is crap against aircraft) or the Leviathan version (which is mediocre but a necessary pick). To add to the rock/paper/scissors aspect of taking Spores, the Jormungandr Gargoyles don't have AA any more, so it makes the taking of Spores an even more hit or miss decision.
- Gargoyles are in a strange place now. They are considerably more expensive than Gaunts being almost double the points and bring enhance mobility and very slightly better offensive stats. But they can't be spawned after they die, so are considerably less resilient in that regard. Since they don't have AA they have become more specialised in their role as buddies to the handful of Synapse creatures who can move as fast as them. I'm not sure how I feel about them, but my gut instinct is to just use them w/ the faster indie fms and spam gaunts for the Synapse swarms.
- Tyrant Guards did exactly what they were supposed to do. I fielded 6 of them and didn't lose a single one during the game. Bit lucky, but they performed admirably in their role. I think they should be options for other groups too, not just Tyrants and Warriors. Sure, the WEs don't really need them that much, but the Malanthropes sure could benefit from a few bodyguards.
- Also not sure we need 2 ways to get a Trygon + Raveners fm as you can buy essentially the same fm either as an indie fm or as a synapse fm. Just seems too much choice when having it as one thing or the other would be better.
- Genestealers did their job wiping out a devastator unit that got too close but their role, now that you can garrison synapse swarms by not putting gaunts in them, seems fairly limited. This is compounded by the fact that they come from the indie 1/4 allocation which is probably better spent on fast moving swarms like harridans and harpies and of course the vital AA.

I might be playing next Tuesday w/ this list again, so any amends you want tested I can field them. Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:00 pm 
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I'll go through a couple of your points and what my reasoning was.

- The 1/4 figure on Independents was an arbitrary figure as most lists have only a 1/3 limit on Titans/Spacecraft. This list has that 1/3 limit on Bio-Titans and the 1/4 limit on Independents as well.

- Another problem for tyranid lists is how to make BTS work with spawning. Killing half the total number of synapse is the 9.2.1 method and is somewhat tougher. Opponents getting the tyranid BTS though doesn't appear to be very difficult. I will have another look and may drop the tyranid player chooses in event of tie clause.

- All the Tyranid lists have SR1, they're not very strategic.

- Expendable is a direct copy from 9.2.1. Tyranids are exceptionally difficult to break from shooting (note that formations still get a BM for coming under fire), close combat is the best option you just need to choose engagements carefully. Tyranids are supposed to be virtually unbreakable while the Synapse is intact (9.2.1 is the same and Leviathan is slightly more limited). Anti-Tyranid tactics involve hitting one formation at a time until it's synapse is gone. I'll see if the limited Leviathan version is viable.

- I didn't consider garrisoning so thats a very good point but I don't consider it significant. 9.2.1 also allows garrisoning of say a Tyrant and 6 Carnifex. The construction of this list is similar to 9.2.1. You can buy 1 uncommon brood for every 1 common brood (it's 2 common broods required per uncommon in 9.2.1 but they are 4 stands and here they're 6 stands for gaunts) so you will always have Gaunts and/or Gargoyles but you are pretty much free to make garrisonable formations if you choose to. You do end up with a weaker formation consisting of mostly gaunts as a trade off.

- Spawning is meant to be more limited (over 9.2.1) but I assume you think the halving within 30cm of enemy formations is a bit too restrictive. On the sentence quoted, essentially you can choose to place inf or LV units into the spawning pool at the start of game even if they don't have the without number rule. It's repetition to make sure the point about not spawning AV's has been clearly made.

- I don't think anyone has gotten Meiotic spores to work right and Gargoyle AA is just a game fudge making Meiotic spores less useful. This was my attempt but you've obviously found a glaring flaw.

- The thought process was Gargoyles should not have AA and should not spawn (as they are always better to spawn than gaunts). Perhaps a little bit too expensive.

- Background wise Tyrant Guard are for Tyrants only. I think extending them to any formation may be going a bit too far.

- I can see your point on Trygons. The synapse swarm is the option for a tunnelling synapse formation and if a choice is made it would be the one I would drop (in favour of the more iconic Trygon/Ravener pairing)

- In 9.2.1 Genestealers come from the 1/3 independent limit but as well as fighting with the Harridan and AA they also have to fight with the Bio-Titans. Overall I think they are more available here than in 9.2.1.

I'll look through and consider your comments. Maybe an update before you're next game.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:21 am 
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My next game is on the 26th so the 25th is kind of a deadline if you will for a next round of testing.

I've never played the 9.2.1 list so some of the questions might come from that lack of experience. No issue with anything (I agree and respect your opinion as list writer) besides the comments below:
- Change needed on Meiotic Spores. I'm not that unhappy w/ the Leviathan version even if as a temp solution. They're very feeble but I guess if you could buy them in clusters of 4 for 100 points you could scatter them around the battlefield to simulate the cloud cover. This would be even easier if they were Scouts of course as I already suggested on the Leviathan thread but this might take it too far.
- How much, if anything, are the Mycetic Spores? Cost included in the price of the undergunned spacecraft?
- In the Draconis list, what does it mean when you write 'may choose 1 spore per Bio-Titan'? What kind of spore is this? A Mycetic Spore? But those are too small to carry a Titan as they only have a transport of 6 and titans would take up 10 and 16 slots respectively.
- Agree that Gargoyles are too expensive right now given their more narrow usage.
- Limitation I referred on spawning was about the relation to Synapse creatures. Looking at it again it's a bit strange that, for example, a Hive Tyrant can only produce 2 gaunts when Regrouping or 1 when Rallying and costs 100 points, whereas a Dominatrix costs 475 and can produce 6 gaunts when regrouping (no problem here as who's going to Regroup w/ a Dominatrix anyway?) but can pop out 8 gaunts when rallying if more than 30cm from enemy. 8 gaunts a turn for 3 turns is 400 points' worth of bugs. I might test this next game but for my previous game I had too few Synapse creatures and too few Zoans (which bulk up the # of synapse) for this to really matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:28 pm 
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carlos wrote:
My next game is on the 26th so the 25th is kind of a deadline if you will for a next round of testing.

I've never played the 9.2.1 list so some of the questions might come from that lack of experience. No issue with anything (I agree and respect your opinion as list writer) besides the comments below:
- Change needed on Meiotic Spores. I'm not that unhappy w/ the Leviathan version even if as a temp solution. They're very feeble but I guess if you could buy them in clusters of 4 for 100 points you could scatter them around the battlefield to simulate the cloud cover. This would be even easier if they were Scouts of course as I already suggested on the Leviathan thread but this might take it too far.
- How much, if anything, are the Mycetic Spores? Cost included in the price of the undergunned spacecraft?
- In the Draconis list, what does it mean when you write 'may choose 1 spore per Bio-Titan'? What kind of spore is this? A Mycetic Spore? But those are too small to carry a Titan as they only have a transport of 6 and titans would take up 10 and 16 slots respectively.
- Agree that Gargoyles are too expensive right now given their more narrow usage.
- Limitation I referred on spawning was about the relation to Synapse creatures. Looking at it again it's a bit strange that, for example, a Hive Tyrant can only produce 2 gaunts when Regrouping or 1 when Rallying and costs 100 points, whereas a Dominatrix costs 475 and can produce 6 gaunts when regrouping (no problem here as who's going to Regroup w/ a Dominatrix anyway?) but can pop out 8 gaunts when rallying if more than 30cm from enemy. 8 gaunts a turn for 3 turns is 400 points' worth of bugs. I might test this next game but for my previous game I had too few Synapse creatures and too few Zoans (which bulk up the # of synapse) for this to really matter.


Meiotic spores back as a unit.
Mycetic Spores are free with the spacecraft (enough to carry the number of formations stated with the spacecraft)
'May choose 1 spore per bio-titan' a leftover from previous version, now removed.
Gargoyles now 5 stands for 100pts
Spawning is generally limited. However AV Synapse now counts as 2 to improve the issue somewhat (Single Tyrant regroup max is now 4, 1-2 when rallying). Also note that gaunts are costed including the continual spawning as they are not worth the 16.66pts per stand without spawning. You definately want to increase the number of synapse creatures from the base formation through the additional AV Synapse or Zoanthropes (although the warrior only synapse brood is passable)


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Didn't get to play last evening but will try again next Tuesday. Meanwhile spotted that Tervigon and Tyrannofex don't have a critical result. I assume 'dies' is the result of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Yes, Tervigon and Tyrannofex critical is dies. I'll add it in at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:40 am 
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Played (and won 2-0) tonight using v0.31 against Black Legion. Bear in mind we're not tourney players although we were playing the GT scenario. Some comments about the game and list:
- As noted in every other list they appear, units that cost 35 pts are a pain. Either grab a multiple of 5 to get the 175 pts cost or you will end up with leftover points in the army total. In my list I used 4 tyrant guards and 1 zoanthrope but if I wanted to take more I'd probably have to include 10 of the things. Of course taking 4 (or 9) is only a gap of 10 points to a normal total (multiple of 25) but wargamers are funny w/ stuff like that and a 2990 list is not as powerful as a 3000 list! Not sure these synapse swarm upgrades can be changed to a more easy to use value. Perhaps improving both and costing them as 50 points? Or a downgrade...
- Used 2 * 3 harpies and they performed very well as they offer things which are lacking in a normal nid list: mobility, cheap activations and good firepower albeit short ranged. They moved in and supported the proper swarms very well. They managed to get off their 15cm attack in every single turn which was quite impressive as if the targeted fm survives then the harpies will take a pasting in an engagement. Points cost seems fine but the disrupt on the BP attack seems a bit too much perhaps?
- In 2 games so far my Harridan has failed 4 out of 5 activations. This includes a re-roll so that's five 1s out of six rolls. This might skew my impression of this unit of course. It seems a bit under-gunned for its cost. For 175 pts it is strong enough and hard to kill but ultimately it's got the same firepower as a Land Raider (more or less) and in an engagement can only kill a handful of enemy fms. It is bloody fast though and once again a unique nid activation so useful but I prefer 3 harpies for less cost.
- Had a hunter swarm w/ 3 scythed and it did really well. For 350 points it's 9 DC w/ a 4+ re-rollable and very hard to put down. Was targeted by a Banelord early on, survived that and kept the huge machine entertained for the next turn. On the 3rd turn the 2 remaining hierodules engaged a black legion fm and wiped it easily. Ended up securing one of the objectives.
- Fielded a Tervigon but it didn't do much. Popped a few gaunts out, then some terminators teleported nearby and wrecked it. DC 2 is fine and all but am not sure what its purpose is besides having all the new codex beasts in. Compared to a hive tyrant it's got less firepower and it's harder to protect being a WE and also more expensive. I like the proxy model I got for it so I might end up using it just because of that. If it could create 'free' units like in 40k then it'd be more useful but I guess that's a no.
- Didn't find the motivation for using a malanthrope as they seem weaker than a tyrant and then can't have bodyguards (except buying more malanthropes for the same formation of course). If they had a 20cm move like in the Leviathan list I can see myself using them w/ raveners or hormagaunts perhaps.
- Raveners remained in the box again as they take an uncommon slot and are they really twice as good as hormies? Especially as they aren't 'without number'. Haven't tried them as part of a subterranean swarm though mostly because the 1/4 limit on indies makes it a hard choice.
- Main mechanics of the list seem fine and balanced. Something to be looked at is the price of the Gargoyles. They're now 100 for 5 as a common brood but cost 25 pts each when bought elsewhere which is overpriced. Also, they don't add much to the fms they can be added to. They present an AP target in a harpy or harridan fm and bring an easy way to add BMs to these somewhat soild fms. They add little power to a harpy fm (do you really want to assault w/ harpies?) and if more than 4 they slow down a harridan (and don't add firepower).
- Still need to try mawloc, tyrannofex, warriors (have none at the moment), hive guard, lictors, the bio-titans except the 'trix, the ships, the pyrovores and the venomthropes.

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