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Overwatched air assault BM allocation

 Post subject: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Rules question from a tournament game this Saturday:

–Landa with mob air assaults marine scouts on overwatch (taking AP and AT shots due to razorback, so both the boyz and the lander are allocated hits).
–Orks take a BM from coming under fire from overwatch, but are counted as 1 formation for the assault.
–After the assault (assuming no non-grot losses), the orks are 2 separate formations, how do you decide if the landa or the mob keeps the BM for coming under fire?

Would the situation be any different if only one of the two ork formations (at that time counting as 1) had taken a BM inflicting casualty from OW? In our game the landa took 1 DC of damage, so there were 2BM total, but the boyz had come under fire as well.

Assume this must happen fairly often, but we weren't sure what to do and were under some pressure, is there a ;correct; answer?

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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:09 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Rules question from a tournament game this Saturday:

–Landa with mob air assaults marine scouts on overwatch (taking AP and AT shots due to razorback, so both the boyz and the lander are allocated hits).
–Orks take a BM from coming under fire from overwatch, but are counted as 1 formation for the assault.
–After the assault (assuming no non-grot losses), the orks are 2 separate formations, how do you decide if the landa or the mob keeps the BM for coming under fire?

Would the situation be any different if only one of the two ork formations (at that time counting as 1) had taken a BM inflicting casualty from OW? In our game the landa took 1 DC of damage, so there were 2BM total, but the boyz had come under fire as well.

Assume this must happen fairly often, but we weren't sure what to do and were under some pressure, is there a ;correct; answer?



I've found this also happens with combined assaults too, I don't think there is a definitive answer.
I'd usually let the firer choose where the BM went but if we need a RAW answer I'd say the Mob would take the BM for coming under fire. This would be due to reading Neal Hunts Master FAQ and the NetEA FAQ
NHMaster FAQ :-
Quote:
Q: When units appear on the table, for example by teleporting, or spawning, or being summoned, do they trigger Overwatch?
A: No. Only completing a move or disembarking triggers Overwatch. Also, note that “a move” in the context of Overwatch has been ruled to be a normal ground move. An aerospace move (planetfall or a landing aircraft) does not trigger overwatch, nor does a countercharge move during an assault.


NetEA FAQ:-
Quote:
Do units that enter play via a special rule (landing, planetfall, self planetfall, teleporting, tunneling, being summoned or swarmed) trigger overwatch fire?
No, only completing a move or disembarking triggers overwatch.


I know both formations count as 1 for the engagement but it would be the dismounting troops that trigger the Overwatch, so if pushed for an answer I would go for whatever dismounts (the mob in this case).


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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:54 am 
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When this was discussed the dim and distant past (specifically with respect to OW against multiple formations under a Commander), I thought Neal ruled that the BM was placed on the formation ‘nearest’ to the firer - effectively on the nearest unit.
If so, it would depend on whether the Mob dismounted in front of the Landa or not.

Unfortunately it seems that discussion did not get to the Master FAQ, and I cannot find the relevant thread (if it still exists).


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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:10 am 
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We've always had the BM go on the disembarker.

Never had the combined assault one pop up, but i don’t think I've seen a combined assault more then ten times total.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:36 am 
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We have put BM to the formations which take damage. The under fire has usually gone to the disembarking formation. So in this case we'd put 1 on each.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 am 
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Dave wrote:
We've always had the BM go on the disembarker.

Never had the combined assault one pop up, but i don’t think I've seen a combined assault more then ten times total.


At the tournament over the weekend we only saw one, and it was pulled off by orks..... I have never seen that before

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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:03 am 
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As with a lot of the rules it is open to interpretation. I have always allowed the player receiving the BM to place it where they want after the formations have split.

Although with my recent (last ten years) luck the air assault fails, aircraft is destroyed and the ground formation is running away broken if alive at all so hasn't really mattered.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 12:40 am 
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It does indeed happen a lot with air assaults, but I have also had it happen with combined engagements. We have always managed to work it out between us with some degree of 'that sounds logical', which is usually to place it on the nearest formation that triggered the overwatch. That tallies pretty well with what others have said above. So in the case of disembarking, the nearest formation that disembarked (yes you can have two formations inside an aircraft, this used to happen a lot back in the day with assaults + devs) and in the case of Commander just the nearest.

One oddity with it is how it interacts with AT vs AP. The infantry disembarking can result in you overwatching even when you're only able to fire AT at the transport, hence you place the BM on the formation that you are not firing at. It's never bothered me since you've always been able to place BMs on AVs using AP etc, but is more weird when there is actually something else that you are rolling to hit instead.

Similarly, sometimes the transport is in range and LOS of the overwatching formation, but the disembarking formation is not. So the act of disembarking triggers overwatch, but if it weren't for the transport being part of the formation you wouldn't normally be able to place a BM on the disembarking formation at all - so should you still place it on the disembarking formation in this case? The idea of placing a BM on a formation that is outside LoS and range whilst not placing it on a formation that you've actually hit is quite jarring. Pretty sure this scenario occurred in one of our games Apoc, with preds in a LC. Can't remember what we did though!

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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:15 am 
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In that case Kyrt, you place the BM on the transport since it is the nearest unit, even though you cannot damage it.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwatched air assault BM allocation
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Sounds odd that a formation disembarking out of range could trigger overwatch? Then you can’t fire at all I’d say? Cause the overwatch rules say you may only fire at the formation that triggered the overwatch, and that would be disembarking formations only, that Transport wouldn’t be a legal target. The crux however is, that they all count as one formation during the combined assault.
In my opinion it feels like the “counts as one formation” is mainly in regards to the combat that is about to take place, and for overwatch purposes they should probably still be viewed as separate formations. Intuitively, I’d go with what many others have already opted for, putting the “coming under fire” on the formation that triggers it and thus should be the only legal target in my opinion. But by this I also mean that I’m not sure you should even be allowed to shoot at the transport at all?? But perhaps it’s actually intended that the formations should count as one for overwatch purposes too, in witch case it could even be argued they both came under fire , so after the assault they should both scurry off with a coming under fire BM each??


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