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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:35 pm 
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Alright all, here's our v2.0 for Tau Vior'la. I've been coordinating with Kyuss on the list so that we can aim for a synchronized list for NetEA and EUK. I don't think any of the changes are incredibly dramatic, but take the time to look through the list since they do include changes to point values, upgrades, and stat lines.

Have at it and I hope people enjoy!

V2.1 Roll out 2/4/19

v2.2 Roll out 5/12/19


Attachments:
VIORLA Tau NETEA 2.2.pdf [344.68 KiB]
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VIORLA Tau 2.1.pdf [122.4 KiB]
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VIORLA Tau NETEA 2.0.pdf [265.58 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:45 pm 
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I've added this to armyforge

while we're waiting for the master repo to be updated, you can play with it on the IO pages Here

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:13 pm 
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Comments:
- Could you change the Recon upgrade to "Replace one Pathfinder or Devilfish unit with a Tetra/Pirhana"? Otherwise the upgrade leaves empty Devilfish in the formation.
- Could we add a Fireblade or Shas'el option to the Stealth suits? I have a nice "Commander Shadowsun" model who is looking for a rule.
- No Crisis Suit formations? No Crisis Supreme Commander?
- It seems like an foot infantry list with a scattering of battlesuits, rather than a battlesuit list. Is that the mission statement? Battlesuits are not obvious upgrades to mounted firewarriors formations.
- The supreme commander is an INF stand with no transport option - is that intentional?
- In foot fire warrior formations, skyrays become easily sniped (being the only AV target). Is there a reason the skyray formation is gone?


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:42 pm 
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SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Comments:
- Could you change the Recon upgrade to "Replace one Pathfinder or Devilfish unit with a Tetra/Pirhana"? Otherwise the upgrade leaves empty Devilfish in the formation.
- Could we add a Fireblade or Shas'el option to the Stealth suits? I have a nice "Commander Shadowsun" model who is looking for a rule.
- No Crisis Suit formations? No Crisis Supreme Commander?
- It seems like an foot infantry list with a scattering of battlesuits, rather than a battlesuit list. Is that the mission statement? Battlesuits are not obvious upgrades to mounted firewarriors formations.
- The supreme commander is an INF stand with no transport option - is that intentional?
- In foot fire warrior formations, skyrays become easily sniped (being the only AV target). Is there a reason the skyray formation is gone?


Thanks for your interest! Let me see if I can answer all your questions:

- the pathfinder formation can currently be taken as 6 PFs OR 4 PFs + transports. Taking the all infantry option helps to avoid empty Devilfish;
- I wont rule it out. But, no offense, I'd like to see a request or need for it in list design over modeling availability;
- I know Crisis Suits are a big part of the Vior'la, and it is a part of the list design I'm conflicted with. To help define it from the third Sphere list, I want to try it without the separate formation, but I'm not against it returning if enough of the community is interested;
- the list build has three general inspirations. To commit to the Vior'la fluff of featuring pathfinders and fire warriors; to provide a more aggressive Mont'ka style of play, and to be different from the Third Sphere List which in this case manifests in heavy suits instead of hover tanks. The Core to Support ratio should keep this from playing too heavily just infantry and should require the list builder to bring formations from both sides for a well rounded list. My concerns with having heavy suits in the core was 1) for fluff reasons and 2) avoiding a build that allows for an all heavy suit build that basically becomes Tau Knights. I know there's pathfinder + heavy suit builds that need to be stress tested, but I'm hoping the imbalance wont be too great;
-the SC is part of the fire warrior formation which can be swapped from 8 fire warriors to 6 fire warriors and 3 devil fish. So there is a transport option, but its not required. The inclusion of the devil fish can also help to shield the skyrays. There's no sky ray formation for the reasons above, the list is try to step away from tank only formations. Riptides also off some AA, albeit in a small way.
- Finally, I toyed with the idea of making the SC upgrade one that turned the stand into a crisis suit to add to its durability and output. However, by adding a suit and Shas'o upgrade you can have the same thing. The only debate I suppose is if the 150pts is fair for that utility. If the Shas'o upgrade includes crisis stats, I think that current cost of 100pts would need to go up. All that said, I'm happy to hear people's thoughts on the issue.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Thanks for the prompt reply.

Quote:
- the pathfinder formation can currently be taken as 6 PFs OR 4 PFs + transports. Taking the all infantry option helps to avoid empty Devilfish;


But mounted PFs are discouraged from swapping in Tetras and Piranhas? I don't really see the reason to swap foot PFs for Tetras/Piranhas, either - you lose the mobility of the skimmer, and gain a vulnerability to AT fire. Am I missing something?

Quote:
- I wont rule it out. But, no offense, I'd like to see a request or need for it in list design over modeling availability;


Fair enough. The plain stealth suits just seems a little bland.

Quote:
- I know Crisis Suits are a big part of the Vior'la, and it is a part of the list design I'm conflicted with. To help define it from the third Sphere list, I want to try it without the separate formation, but I'm not against it returning if enough of the community is interested;


Consider me interested...

Quote:
- the list build has three general inspirations. To commit to the Vior'la fluff of featuring pathfinders and fire warriors; to provide a more aggressive Mont'ka style of play, and to be different from the Third Sphere List which in this case manifests in heavy suits instead of hover tanks. The Core to Support ratio should keep this from playing too heavily just infantry and should require the list builder to bring formations from both sides for a well rounded list. My concerns with having heavy suits in the core was 1) for fluff reasons and 2) avoiding a build that allows for an all heavy suit build that basically becomes Tau Knights. I know there's pathfinder + heavy suit builds that need to be stress tested, but I'm hoping the imbalance wont be too great;


I wasn't really commenting on the heavy suits, I was more after the Crisis suits. They are lackluster in the 3rd Phase Expansion, and I was hoping to see them shine in this list - after all, battlesuit infantry is what makes Tau distinct from the dozens other mobile infantry lists available. But I take it this list is focused on firewarriors and pathfinders?

Quote:
-the SC is part of the fire warrior formation which can be swapped from 8 fire warriors to 6 fire warriors and 3 devil fish. So there is a transport option, but its not required.


OK, didn't see it was a replacement for an existing stand.

It seems like a strange unit, though - it has the statline of a crisis suit, but can ride a Devilfish?

BTW, the Devilfish statline is missing in the 2.0 reference sheet.

Quote:
The inclusion of the devil fish can also help to shield the skyrays. There's no sky ray formation for the reasons above, the list is try to step away from tank only formations. Riptides also off some AA, albeit in a small way.


It does mean that mounted firewarriors is strongly suggested by the list structure, since it is the only way to bring reasonably protected ground flak?

At the same time foot firewarriors is strongly suggested if one wants to bring crisis suits. Is that an accurate statement?

And of course, multiple pathfinder formations are strongly suggested to let the rest of the army shoot effectively. Agreed?

Regarding the Razorshark: Is it intentional that the turret is FA and the burst cannons fire all around? Shouldn't it be the other way 'round?

Best regards, and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:28 pm 
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@Speakertomachines, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to improve crisis suits, they are indeed pretty naff in the 3rd sphere list, and mostly seem to be taken as a vessel for the supreme commander and sometimes as a not entirely vulnerable BTS, they're fairly slow and lacking in transport options, short of mucking about with the stats excessively, what would you suggest?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:11 pm 
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S2M, I'm glad your so interested in the list. It's making me view the list from different viewpoints and catch some points that need fine tuning:
- the inclusion of the recon units for pathfinders is meant to be able to add a bit more fluff flavor to the list, not necessarily massive utility. I specifically want to make sure someone can't just swap them out enough to just recreate a recon formation from third sphere. Since recon units are piloted by pathfinders, I saw fluff reasons to include them. I think the most useful build at the moment would be 2 or 3 pathfinder infantry garrisoned in cover with tetras making up the rest behind the cover. They'd be able to pop over tomarker light, but would still have protected from forward direct fire since they're behind the terrain as opposed to in it. Or a missile bank of piranhas with a pathfinder or two directing fire with ML could put people in stitches.
- for crisis suits, do you have ideas how they could be highlighted more? My impression of them was that while fun, they're an expensive glass cannon. I believe the price tag, small formation size, and low durability is why they're typically not optimized. I'd love to hear ideas on them though, since they are such an iconic unit.
- for the Shas'o, yes. It's a slight boost in stats to give it some resiliancy, but still standard Firewarrior infantry so as to fit with the formation.
- thanks for pointing out the missing devil fish statline! I'll make sure get that included.
- I wouldn't say mounted fire warriors are suggested, but yes, I see them as the most efficient way to have reliable ground based AA in the list and to keep it alive.
- I can see suits having a use in both mounted and unmounted. In unmounted formations, they have the benefit of being with other infantry units, making it harder to "snipe" them out of the formation. They also lend plenty of firepower at the same range as the fire warriors, although they can't take full advantage of their speed and mobility. Mixed in a mounted formation, with careful placement and use of the jet pack ability, the suits can keep pace with the devil fish. Admittedly, the suit really does have it's own feel and doesn't fit perfectly with either, but I definitely think it has a roll in both types of formations.
- Regarding pathfinders, yes and no. Being able to provide markerlights, they clearly have a roll in a Tau list and make it better at shooting. That said, I think the Vior'la list engages better then Third Sphere and doesn't rely as heavily on it's long range shooting. Additionally, the heavy suits have pretty efficient firing as is. As the currently stands, I'd probably opt for two formations of them, although I could see going with three, maybe four, if you skip out on Skyrays.
- looking at the razor shark, the TBC should be brought up to 6+ to keep it in line with other units and the Third Sphere List. I have to disagree about the turret having 360, since a 30cm AA at 360 is pretty potent. I would like to bring the turret down to a AA5+ though. Interesting trade off the 360 at 15cm v FA at 30cm. Guess we'll need to test! ;)
- I also saw the spaceship is currently at 225pts. That should be down to 200 to bring it in line with the Third Sphere.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:54 pm 
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The spaceship is better than the third sphere, the +25pts is to compensate for the addition of the tracer salvo

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:00 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
The spaceship is better than the third sphere, the +25pts is to compensate for the addition of the tracer salvo
Thanks, good catch!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:00 pm 
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Happy to see the list out!

Some thoughts and feedback

I think joint devlopment with epicUK is probably a good thing. There's not that many Tau players so joining forces will hopefully help. Be wary though UK has a devlopment philosophy that has a tendacy to kill the flavour and fun in alternate lists (I'm not trying to start a netEA vs UK flame war please it just my honest but of course subjective opinion).

  • Going with one kind of FW is likely a good decision (that I wasn't prepared to make). It sets the list appart. I'd suggest you call them FW breachers instead though as that's a new unit that exists in the lore and has the weapons loadout you've given them.
  • I like the FW formation and how you've handled the upgrades. The pathfinder upgrade seems like a nobrainer to me (not saying that's a good or bad thing). A foot formation with pfs and two crisis will be a strong airdrop with the dual utillity of both good FF and devestating (ap) shooting.
  • Conserning the crisis suit. The plasma rifle was updated to include an AT6 stat in third phase. Secondly I don't think FF4 is a fair exchange for the loss of one AT attack and the 45cm threat range.
    Suggestions: a) 2 crisis for 75pts is more fair in my mind. or b) Ignore cover in FF or EA(plus 1) for the flamer would make them closer to 50 pts each and also reinforce the close up aspect/mont'ka.
  • SpeakerToMachines wrote:
    Comments:
    - Could you change the Recon upgrade to "Replace one Pathfinder or Devilfish unit with a Tetra/Pirhana"? Otherwise the upgrade leaves empty Devilfish in the formation.

    I agree with StM. In addition I also think you should make it "replace up to three..."
    As is you allow the recon formation of third phase and as a core formation no less. I think that should be an exclusive of the old list as it's an iconic part of the same. Secondly, we all know which formation is usually taken over the other in third phase. Setting a limit forces the player to always have some inf pathfinders in each formation which reinforces the Vior'la theme better.
  • I like how you've implemented the Shas'O
  • No hammerheads, not even a small formation, makes me cry a little they're so iconic for tau, but I see why you have done it.
  • I've said it before and I know it doesn't seem to bother anyone else so I'll just protest it for my own pease of mind. GW was mostly true to models when giving weapon names in epic the baneblade and lemon russes are good examples. Matts version of the Riptide has redicioulus weapons. It has three of the actual models main weapons. Keep the stats but rename them! :D
  • What's the reasoning behind giving Ritides AA? Seems odd to me.
  • I'd suggest adding the skysweep formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:14 pm 
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the problem with the suits is that they are horrendously vulnerable to aircraft, especially those pesky terminators, I played 4-5 games where you could embed a skyray into the heavy suit formation, however the self-markerlighting nature of the formation with the firepower of the big suits was just too potent, so it was suggested to add a velocity tracker (which I'm informed is a fairly common upgrade in 40k these days) which allows ground units to fire at aircraft. In my test games since, I've found that it makes air assault much less one-sided without making the suits excessively potent at shooting, and tends to be much less of a threat to aircraft in general

The other option would be to add it in as an upgrade for say 25pts?

Agreed on the weapon naming for the riptides, Gunslinger used my template for the list so that was probably overlooked :)

On the hammerheads, maybe they could be included as upgrades to the fire warrior formation like in the 3rd phase list, that way you could at least use the models if you have them (although it would encourage many folks to play both Vior'la and 3rd sphere lists which to my mind is the aim of the game here :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:01 am 
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Crisis suits perform above avg for me. Leave them as is.

Yvarhra suits FF is too low, 5. Crisis suits are a 4 and the Yvarhra packs more hate at 15.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:53 pm 
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Yikes! Just came home to see this upgrade. No more Mantas in the list :-O
Just purchased two mantas for my Riptide/Rvarna/Yhvara heavy army. Well when they arrive I will have to use them for the original list then.

Also no more Hammerheads. No more crisis units (just upgrades). And no core heavy suit formation..

Hmmm...

I know I am probably in the minority, but I don't mind rule changes and balancing, but I hate when stuff gets removed... but that's probably just me..

Seems like I am probably going to shelf this list and return to the old one (non-Vior'la), lackluster as that one is... (which more than anything should be upgraded)..

*le sigh*


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:33 pm 
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I think that broadly you could use whatever models and units you like from both this and the 3rd sphere list and it would play okay and be roughly balanced, I suggest that unless you are a hardcore tournament player you consider doing just that with your opponents, you could also consider using the old version written by Matt shadowlord if you like it, it's still available if you and your opponents want to continue using it, it's also still archived on armyforge, so you could easily fork it off into your own branch and have an army builder for it too :)

The remit of NetEA list development is to create tournament ready lists with variant playstyles and units, not to shoehorn everything into one list, I am sorry you dislike the direction the Vior'la is going in, but I am also absolutely sure that if you suggest good ideas for the list, that Gunslinger007 will take them into consideration because he's committed to an open and inclusive development process

For my money the original Vior'la list should not have started off at Developmental stage because frankly it wasn't developmental and it meant a lot of people felt secure in building a collection around it when they shouldn't have

The 3rd sphere list isn't that lacklustre it just doesn't have the battlesuits (which a friendly opponent would probably have zero issue with you using), and with the manta about to get a shot in the arm, should be a perfect home for your recent acquisitions :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:42 pm 
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@Borka
- thanks for the reminder about crisis suits. I'll update the AT6+ for plasma and add the 1 for 50/ 2 for 75 lines. I'd like to play test the FF4+ a bit. If it does seem to potent at this point, we can scale it back.
- for the Recon upgrades, I don't believe the original 3rd sphere formation can be build. Formations are limited to four upgrades, so the closest you can get is 2 devil fish w 4 tetra or 2 pathfinders w 4 tetra, each with their own pros and cons.
- for the Riptide, I'll get on making the adjustments and roll them out with 2.1.
- the demand for crisis suits as a solo formation seems pretty high. I expect they'll be reintroduced.

@m_folias
- regarding the Yvarha, I agree the can be strong. I know you've said a bunch you think they're too keyed up. Do you have any suggestion on adjustments?

@Draacon
- I'm glad you're so interested in the Tau in general, especially the Vior'la as we work on them. I'm not sure Mantas will make the Vior'la tournament list, but I think some of the new changes for the Manta will make it more desirable for the Third Sphere list. And of course, feel free to sample from both for casual play!
- I'm sorry some of the adjustments have thrown you off. Unfortunately, as a list still being worked on and refined, changes in stats and build might be necessary. However, it does seem like a crisis formation will be reintroduced along with the possibility of hammerheads as upgrades for fire warriors.
- at the moment, I do think the heavy suits will be staying out of the core. I havent seen fluff indicating the Vior'la sept had especially high rates of heavy suit usage, as opposed to their high usage of fws and Pfs, so I do want to try and have the list reflect that. I don't believe the list should be able to run as all heavy suits.
- since it seems you're a bit discouraged with the list, what are the top three components you'd like to see in a new Vior'la list? I can't promise they'll all make it, but I do want to see what people who are passionate about the list are looking for
- regarding upgrading the 3rd Sphere List, Kyuss beat me to it. NetEA doesn't have habit of going back and upgrading old approved lists with new units GW creates. Rather new lists are created that can incorporate the new units and offer new play styles for the community. You can see it with Marines, "Newcrons", and Tyranids to name a few.

I hope you'll stay interested with this list! While I think calling the 3rd Sphere list lackluster is a bit harsh, I know there is a demand to get a new variety of units on the table and all help is appreciated.

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