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Death Guard v0.5-0.6

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Thanks again for feedback, both of you!

atension wrote:
I just like daemons. The way the list is currently stuctured with more expensive fornations its hard to justify including them and sacrificing formation count. Not that thats necessarily bad.

Ah, so not the cost-effectiveness of the demons themselves.

Regarding Zombies as Core, I think we're talking at cross-purposes, I didn't read your post as removing Plague Marines from Core, I was just asking whether you thought Zombies would grant access to Support formations.

Having thought through it some more, my initial negative reaction is reinforced. Even if they don't allow Support formations, Plague Zombies are already one of the most irritating formations in the list to play against, and removing restrictions will allow lists that simply aren't going to make for interesting games - for example eight Plague Zombie Infestations is less than half of a 3000 list, for an average of 80 Fearless bases. You could basically make it impossible for your opponent to advance out of their Deployment Zone the entire game, and regardless of effectiveness, that definitely falls into negative play experiences.

That said, I'm open to working on an additional type of Zombie formation as Core, presumably without Teleport, which could also be a place to experiment with enemy INF casualties turning into more Zombies.

For AVs, Death Guard are supposed to have fewer vehicles, but that's already represented in the list compared to Black Company, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons where the ACs unlock Support formations. If I remember correctly, you were a fan of moving the AC and AAC formations to Core when it was done.




@gunslinger007

Terminators - yes, I think they're going to have to go back to a single statline. It seems that EA simply doesn't have the design space for 'Assault Terminators' in a useful fashion. Note that the 5+ INV and reduced price also comes with a removal of Thick Rear Armour, so they're less robust when surrounded. Plus Mounted and Walker to make them less manoeuvrable.

Steve54's original version had 3+ RA and they were just painful to try and kill, while again being just as easy to break.


Nurgling Infestation - agreed, this is one of the most successful additions to the list, in terms of fluffiness and making the formations play differently.


Defiler variants - there's no good solution. :-(
If I remove the Defilers, atension will have another fit. ;-)
If I remove the Desecrators, the list has no on-table AA, and no obvious place to put it that doesn't contradict the background pretty badly (Obliterators, for example, as their virus gets messed up by Nurgle).
If I remove the Plague Hulk, we're taking away the only Power-specific Defiler variant that is actually canon.


Plague Tower Transport - this is taken verbatim from the 'official' Stigmatus Coven list, but the wording is horrible - GUCs are listed as 16, and then in the second sentence are said to take up two spaces.


Nurgle's Rot - Yes, it's fiddly, but moving it back to being a formation-level ability means reworking the Beasts of Nurgle yet again, as they're currently balanced by having Nurgle's Rot as a unit-level ability.

For some more blue-sky thinking, changing Nurgle's Rot so that it creates Zombies would be a possibility, but in the modern background it's the Walking Pox that does that, not Nurgle's Rot. The end result of Nurgle's Rot has always been… Plaguebearers.

Sooooo. What if casualties to Nurgle's Rot formations add to the Daemon Pool? Restricted to INF casualties in assaults. This would obviously need lots of experimenting for cost, limits on how many can be converted into Lesser Daemons, formation-level vs unit-level etc. but would have the positive side effect of making Daemonic Pact more attractive.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Yeah, zombies are evil - or at least the teleporting ones are! No more please! :-)

Could possibly live with Pox-walker formations as hoard infantry on foot, but still not sure if they should be core... Would be a interesting option but would need to ensure it doesn't allow activation spam - i guess large formation sizes which would act as defensive screens and tar pits around objectives/blitz. Worth trying maybe.

However, Nurgles rot causing "powering up" of the daemon pool is a class A great idea! Would be nice to see more plague bearers about (and if people choose zombies/pox walkers to represent them then fine) and creates a nice feel of an infection growing as the battle develops.

I say draft a proposal, something along the lines of a D6 chance (5/6?) of generating a daemon pool point for each casualty in CC by a unit with NR? (not just infantry, I'm sure tank crews would make fine plague bearers and it would be too fiddly/fringe otherwise). Importantly it give NR units a definite niche and reason for list inclusion and tactical use (ie. aiming early casualties to boost later combats). Might even be worth adding the ability to Nurglings?

The only potential OP unit i can think of is the terminators, which potentially could rack up a lot of CC kills early on and then recycle them into plague bearers the next turn - then again, making them worth their points has always been a problem so maybe this would help??

Though not quite clear on the wording of Nurgles Rotters : "The formation counts as having an additional unit with Nurgle's Rot" - "do you mean additional unit ability"?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
Having thought through it some more, my initial negative reaction is reinforced. Even if they don't allow Support formations, Plague Zombies are already one of the most irritating formations in the list to play against, and removing restrictions will allow lists that simply aren't going to make for interesting games - for example eight Plague Zombie Infestations is less than half of a 3000 list, for an average of 80 Fearless bases. You could basically make it impossible for your opponent to advance out of their Deployment Zone the entire game, and regardless of effectiveness, that definitely falls into negative play experiences. 

That said, I'm open to working on an additional type of Zombie formation as Core, presumably without Teleport, which could also be a place to experiment with enemy INF casualties turning into more Zombies.

For AVs, Death Guard are supposed to have fewer vehicles, but that's already represented in the list compared to Black Company, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons where the ACs unlock Support formations. If I remember correctly, you were a fan of moving the AC and AAC formations to Core when it was done.


I was for the AAC not the AC. Both seems too much. You are absolutely correct about the zombie formations being too annoying and spammable in thier current state moving to thd core selection. Yeah they would need to lose teleport and or be adjusted in other ways.

I think you are really on to something though with kills contributing daemon pool expansion. That would be really interesting and a good way to ensure daemons are included. Also a good way to balance out the cost of some of the more expensive formations rather than making them ungodly resilient or giving them near guaranteed assault wins.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:25 am 
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Can't say I see the need for a cheap zombie core formation. One of the weaknesses of the list is the small activation account, but it's countered by more resilient and durable elite formations.

The list can already easily fit three of the formations (2 in support and one from the plague ship.) Not sure opponents would enjoy there being even more!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Provisional wording, but two versions as I'm not sure if it should be unit-level or formation-level:


Nurgle's Rot (per unit version 061)

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that turns the infected into Plaguebearers.

Nurgle’s Rot affects enemy casualties in assaults with formations containing units with Nurgle's Rot. Before 1.12.7 Work Out Results, each enemy unit killed in the assault increases the Death Guard player’s Lesser Daemon Pool by one. This is limited to the number of surviving units in the assault that have Nurgle’s Rot, including those in formations that provided Supporting Fire.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy casualties belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.


Nurgle's Rot (formation version 061)

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that turns the infected into Plaguebearers.

Nurgle’s Rot affects enemy casualties inflicted in assaults with formations with Nurgle's Rot. Before 1.12.6 Supporting Fire, roll a d6 for each enemy unit killed in the assault. Each roll of 5+ increases the Death Guard player’s Lesser Daemon Pool by one.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy casualties belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.



In both cases it's likely to be combined with Beasts of Nurgle becoming a unit upgrade (probably with the Chaos Spawn) rather than being in the Daemon Pool, so that all summoned lesser daemons are Plaguebearers.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Can't say I see the need for a cheap zombie core formation. One of the weaknesses of the list is the small activation account, but it's countered by more resilient and durable elite formations.

The list can already easily fit three of the formations (2 in support and one from the plague ship.) Not sure opponents would enjoy there being even more!

Note that the Support Formation isn't 0-2 like it is in the LatD list, it's 'just' another Support Formation so two per Retinue.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 pm 
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A cleaner and more thorough version of the Nurgle's Rot rule:


Nurgle's Rot (Plaguebearer formation version 062)

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that turns the infected into Plaguebearers.

If a formation with Nurgle’s Rot assaults or is assaulted, roll a d6 for each enemy unit that is killed in the assault. Do this immediately before 1.12.7 Work Out Results. For each result of 5+, increase the Death Guard Daemon Pool by one.

In the case of ties and subsequent rounds of combat, do not roll again for casualties from previous rounds of the combat.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy casualties belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:32 am 
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I think 6+ would be better. Than the rule will not come into effect as much and potenrially skew the game result (by adding a bigger number of units to the army).

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:39 pm 
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I know what you mean, but for me that would have the opposite effect - by making it less likely, you're actually making the end result more swingy.

Note that this version of Nurgle's Rot is only on the Supreme Commander, Daemon Prince and a formation upgrade with an increased price, this won't be all over the list like in 0.6.0.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:33 pm 
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0.62 batrep up, updated army to follow...

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=33744

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:43 pm 
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0.6.2 is now up in the first post, see http://ijw.on-rev.com/armyforge_temp/ch ... g062_NETEA for list-building.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:55 am 
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I got a game in yesterday, against EpicUK Iron Warriors, with this list.

Rotters 063, 2990 POINTS
Death Guard (NetEA V0.6.3 Taccoms Thread)
==================================================

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [430]
Plaguecaster Lord, 4 Death Guard Rhino, 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon), Nurgle's Rotters

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [450]
7 Plague Marines, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon), Lord of Contagion (Supreme Commander), (Walkers) Desecrator

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [490]
7 Plague Marines, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon), Death Guard Daemon Prince [with wings], (Walkers) Desecrator, Nurgle's Rotters

DEATH GUARD CHOSEN [370]
4 Plague Marine Chosen, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 Lesser Daemon), 2 (Walkers) Defiler, 2 Death Guard Rhino

PLAGUE ZOMBIE INFESTATION* [175]
3+2D6 Plague Zombies

CONTAGION TOWERS* [325]
4 Contagion Towers

PLAGUE TOWERS* [350]
Plague Tower

BLIGHT DRONE SWARM* [200]
4 Blight Drones

BLIGHT DRONE SWARM* [200]
4 Blight Drones

DAEMON POOL [0]

This was testing Blight Drones in a smaller formation of four to make them more of a harassing unit by being easier to break, but also cheaper to be able to take them in the first place. Also tested were the Daemon Prince and Lord of Contagion SC 'reduced' to the standard Black Legion versions (so without Nurgle's Rot built-in), and Nurgle's Rot as a 40pt upgrade at formation level.

The game itself was very swingy, with the Death Guard getting beaten in the first three Strategy Rolls for initiative, and only winning the fourth as it was a tie. The DG did win, but it really didn't look like it would go that way in the early game.

Notable moments include enemy the Decimator with it's MW, IC Barrage managing to kill one Plague Marine and one Rhino when the template covered 6-7 units, then in the following turn reducing the formation to a single Rhino and PM.

The Chosen with two Defilers lost a bunch of models to Hell Talon bombers before activating, but later on managed to take a few long-range pot-shots with a Defiler's Battlecannon (one Defiler left at that point), helping break some enemy Basilisks. Although having garrisoned Defilers is scary, it's also a pretty expensive formation. I also need to test 4 Chosen + 3 Defilers at 400pt as that's probably more cost-effective, but still suffers from being very split in role. If going for an all-rounders formation, 4 Chosen, 1 Desecrator and 2 Defilers might be better, as the Defilers can soak up some suppression for the Desecrator's AA.

The two smaller Blight Drone formations did roughly as expected, being noticeably more fragile due to the way 4-strong and 5-strong formations work in EA. One formation managed to reach and break some Basilisks in the late game, while the other got gunned down in one activation by a Ravager Titan.

The Plague Tower doubled forwards in turn one and thanks to getting 6BP managed to break a Vindicator formation, then in a later turn managed to break the Vindicators again, and also catch the Decimator and break it. Then in the late game it failed an activation but still managed to break a mid-table Vindicator formation (and catch-and-kill some broken Terminators) then doubled back to help hold my Blitz objective and to break the remnants of a huge Defiler formation that were getting close to the Blitz.

The Contagions repeatedly failed to activate, even when using the SC's re-roll. :{[]

Across 2-3 assaults that involved Nurgle's Rot, a grand total of one Plaguebearer was generated, partly because a prepped assault by the DG failed to activate.


CONCLUSIONS

Blight Drones at 4 for 200pt seems to work well, slightly blunting their power level but not nerfing them as severely as the EpicUK version.

Nurgle's Rot at 40pt is just too expensive, even taking into account the poor situations of this game - because it depends on having already tooled up for Daemons, it's effectively a 65pt upgrade, plus potentially buying some Lesser Daemons as well. For the next game (on New Year's Day) I'll be trying it at 25pt.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:39 am 
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Good game as always. We both set up some monster assaults but the dice were not having it! All wimpered out somewhat. My mistake was getting suck(ered) into doubling down on your BTS even when my main assault units had been gutted - meat grinder with deathguard is only going to end one way! Only your pitiful intitiative rolls kept me in the game. :-)

Blight drones felt better - though against AV army they tend to be a bit weak anyway.

Nurgles rot was good, though i agree its a bit too situational to be worth 40pnts.

I wonder if the ability to garison chosen with defilers might be a bit too strong?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:01 pm 
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The Chosen + Defilers definitely needs testing, but as mentioned it's not a cheap formation. 400pt for a mixed formation of 4 INF and 3 AV is a relatively hard sell compared to 450pt for two separate formations of four units.

Hmm, I need to double-check a few things about formation coherency with mixed Scout and non-Scout units again, that might have a really big impact on assaults.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.5-0.6
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Hmm. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30639

So it would be possible for the Defilers (or other Defiler-types) to leapfrog forwards during an assault via Infiltrate, as long as one of them stays within 20cm of the Chosen. That definitely needs stress-testing.

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