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Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers

 Post subject: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:09 am 
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Had a game the other day that with a massive combined assault between some terminators and truck load of Necrons and it resulted some debate about the rule interpretation.

Situation:
6 chaos terminators + 1 Obliterator assaulting a formation of 3 Monoliths with intermingled (2 independant) pylons and a C'tan (Deciever). See picture.

Attachment:
Assault action.png
Assault action.png [ 16.27 KiB | Viewed 769 times ]


Questions:

The attacker has to then assign the number of attack dice to going to WE's before rolling. Which was fine. The Rules state:

"3.2.1 If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation.

He assigned his CC attacks to the WE's since the Pylons are not skimmers. The issue arose when 5 hits were rolled with the CC weapons that would be 2 to each pylon and one to the C'tan? Or would they all have to be assigned to the Pylons since CC attacks cannot hit skimmers if the Player controlling the skimmer chooses to using their FF. The rules say:

"All units have two assault values: a close combat value and a firefight value. Units that are in base-to-base contact with the enemy use the close combat value, while units that are not in base contact but are within 15cm and have a line of fire to the enemy can use their firefight value. Units that are armed only with close combat weapons and do not have any small arms or other ranged weapons may only attack if in base contact with the enemy."

So the defending player would assign hits how how:
A. 2 CC hits to one Pylon, 3CC hits to the other pylon.
B. 2 CC hits to each pylon and one to the C'tan.

Or do you need to assign attacks to each WE independently if there are multiple different types (skimmer vs Non skimmer) before hand? I guess it could have been the same case We's aside if the pylons weren't pylons but Necron infantry, would the CC hits carry over to the skimmers if they were in base to base with both infantry and and the skimmers?

So if you had 2 infantry and 3 skimmers, the infantry out front and 4 terminators engaging them that did say 7 hits. Would the hits carry over on the skimmers?

We played option B.

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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:49 am 
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that section of the rulebook refers to shooting at war engines..... in assaults you roll attacks and defender allocates them closest to furthest.... you can't single out or avoid war engines in assaults, that would make krieg utterly useless if they couldn't steer CC hits into the armour of the gorgons

in your example above, the 'flying power fist effect' would mean that the CC hits of the terminators could be applied to the monoliths if they are closer than the c'tan, in engagements unless you are a war engine, the hits just become 'generic hits' which are applied closest to furthest, if you can use your CC attacks by getting into BTB with the enemy then regardless of whether other units are in BTB or FF, the CC hits are applied to them

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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:59 am 
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atension wrote:
Had a game the other day that with a massive combined assault between some terminators and truck load of Necrons and it resulted some debate about the rule interpretation.

Situation:
6 chaos terminators + 1 Obliterator assaulting a formation of 3 Monoliths with intermingled (2 independant) pylons and a C'tan (Deciever). See picture.

Attachment:
Assault action.png



Chaos terminators are not Infiltrators so could not bypass the monoliths in the picture to get to the WEs.
Quote:
Questions:

The attacker has to then assign the number of attack dice to going to WE's before rolling. Which was fine. The Rules state:

"3.2.1 If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation.


You need to read 3.2.1 in conjunction with 3.2
Quote:
3.2 WAR ENGINE SHOOTING The following special rules apply when shooting either at or with war engines. In general, war engines are treated in the same manner as armoured vehicle targets (ie, any hit that would affect an armoured vehicle can affect a war engine). Any exceptions to this are noted below.


Quote:
He assigned his CC attacks to the WE's since the Pylons are not skimmers. The issue arose when 5 hits were rolled with the CC weapons that would be 2 to each pylon and one to the C'tan? Or would they all have to be assigned to the Pylons since CC attacks cannot hit skimmers if the Player controlling the skimmer chooses to using their FF. The rules say:

The rules do not state CC attacks cannot hit skimmers only which attack value is used when making the attacks.
All hits in an engage action are pooled and placed nearest unit to furthest unit (with defender choosing if any are equidistant )
Normal attacks are placed first then MW Attacks (after any casualties from normal hits have been removed) are placed


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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:23 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
that section of the rulebook refers to shooting at war engines..... in assaults you roll attacks and defender allocates them closest to furthest.... you can't single out or avoid war engines in assaults, that would make krieg utterly useless if they couldn't steer CC hits into the armour of the gorgons

in your example above, the 'flying power fist effect' would mean that the CC hits of the terminators could be applied to the monoliths if they are closer than the c'tan, in engagements unless you are a war engine, the hits just become 'generic hits' which are applied closest to furthest, if you can use your CC attacks by getting into BTB with the enemy then regardless of whether other units are in BTB or FF, the CC hits are applied to them


I wondered about that, but the confusions comes from section 1.12.5 "Each player allocates the hits and make saving throws in the same manner as they would when allocating hits from shooting". So then you reference

3.2.1 If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation.

But I guess 3.2.1. its talking about the attacks and 1.12.5 is talking about the hits which are already rolled attacks so that part is moot.

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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Quote:
Chaos terminators are not Infiltrators so could not bypass the monoliths in the picture to get to the WEs.


They arent exactly bypassing them since they are still touching the monoliths. Or would they only be allowed to just get to the monoliths then have to stop without being able to wrap to touch both.

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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Once you enter into a unit's ZoC you have to move directly towards it. Given that it's pretty difficult to enter two unit's ZoC at the same time we just assume locally that a unit can only BtB one enemy unless it's an infilitrator (which ignore ZoC) or a WE (which move towards an enemy who's ZoC it enters but then get's to keep on moving to BtB others because it can barge).

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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:54 pm 
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atension wrote:
Quote:
Chaos terminators are not Infiltrators so could not bypass the monoliths in the picture to get to the WEs.


They arent exactly bypassing them since they are still touching the monoliths. Or would they only be allowed to just get to the monoliths then have to stop without being able to wrap to touch both.



From 1.12.3
Quote:
A maximum of two units may move into base contact with each defender. A charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered. Once a unit has been contacted it loses its zone of control for the rest of the assault, allowing other units to move past it.

From1.7.3
Quote:
Units may not enter an enemy zone of control while they move, unless they are undertaking an engage action and use their charge move to get into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose zone of control they have entered. Once a unit has been contacted by an engaging enemy unit, it loses its own zone of control for the rest of that engage action (including the ensuing assault). This will allow other units to move round it. Units are never allowed to cross directly over an enemy unit, even if it has lost its zone of control

From FAQ
Quote:
1.12.3 Make Charge Move Q: How should we interpret section 1.12.3 when it says "Remember that a charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered"?
A: The intent of the rule is that if you enter a ZOC, then you must attempt to move into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose ZOC you have entered. If you start a move in a ZOC, you can either move into contact with the closest enemy unit, or exit the ZOC by the shortest possible route.

If a unit does not have enough movement to make it into base contact it still moves as much as possible towards the closest unit. The intent of the rule is that you should not be able to charge through a ZOC to reach a unit further away but should always move towards the closest enemy unit even if you cannot make it into base contact.


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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Once you enter into a unit's ZoC you have to move directly towards it. Given that it's pretty difficult to enter two unit's ZoC at the same time we just assume locally that a unit can only BtB one enemy unless it's an infilitrator (which ignore ZoC) or a WE (which move towards an enemy who's ZoC it enters but then get's to keep on moving to BtB others because it can barge).


Even though they are declared intermingled and counted as the same formation?

Just making sure. I'm not in opposition just playing devils advocate.

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 Post subject: Re: Assault hit allocation with skimmers and non skimmers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Intermingling just makes them one formation for purposes of working out the assault, it doesn't allow you to ignore the rules for charging and/or ZoC.

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