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Dark Eldar Army List 2017

 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:03 am 
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mordoten wrote:
DBAD is a really bad crutch that the rest of the world doesn't use so that should not be taken into consideration when developing the lists (see thread about it for arguments against it).

Wow, that's not at all the kind of behaviour that drove the Aussies away from Taccoms in the first instance.

But we're not talking about the EUK list.. I thought your whole sctick was E:A repair. Why compare when we're supposed to be fixing E:A from within, not fracturing again?

I guess all that remains is to congratulate you on becoming the exemplar for all the issues you claimed to be solving. Imagine my interest in spending what little gaming time I can glean assisting with playtesting now. It pretty much equals my desire to return here.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:21 am 
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Wow, that's not at all the kind of behaviour that drove the Aussies away from Taccoms in the first instance.

What? So if I think DBAD is bad sollution to solving list problems thats a fracturing idea? Is "a bad crutch" a offending phrase thats is so harsh you don't want to be on taccoms?? Don't you think you're over reacting a little?
DBAD is an australian optional rule that is not used by the rest of the world. So using it when developing lists would mean you're using a rule that a majority of the people using the NetEA lists are not utilizing. Can you see the problem with that?

But we're not talking about the EUK list.. I thought your whole sctick was E:A repair. Why compare when we're supposed to be fixing E:A from within, not fracturing again?

Well, it's heavily based on the EpicUK list obviously so i think the comparison is very valid. I personally think the EpicUK list is very balanced, maybe a bit weak at times. Thats why I'm not objecting any more to give Incubi +1EA MW instead of the+1EA in the EpicUk list. Or that partisans get +1 on initiative to engage inetsad of nothing in the epicUK list. Thoose to buffs are ok in my book.
But thoose 2 PLUS cheap Tormentor/executioner, 6+ armour save on warriors, upgunned BoP and not having the special rule of Incubis being always the BTS is in my book waaay to many buffs to the list.
And i know of Aussies that agree with me on several of theese points so i don't think it's a Australia vs the World kinda argument (which in itself is very fracturing rethoric to use).

I guess all that remains is to congratulate you on becoming the exemplar for all the issues you claimed to be solving. Imagine my interest in spending what little gaming time I can glean assisting with playtesting now. It pretty much equals my desire to return here.

Ok dude, thats not a very constructive stance to take when someone doesn't agree with you. To quote one of your fellow Aussies Steve Hughes which is one of my favourite comedians: "You have a right to be offended". :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:33 am 
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Well I will have to start developing a new Wyches and Warriors based DE assault list. After I finish the Sisters Ministorum list.

I know many people will think my list when I start developing it, will be too powerful for close combat. Seriously though, I know that if you consider a list a close combat army, and everyone says they are crap at shooting, and are a glass cannon assault force, then I will be designing my list to primarily be an assault list back up by partisans to help remove enemy armour, assist in softening up enemy before assaults, and aircraft to finish off broken formations that have run off to the flanks.

I will also try to include beast handlers on grav-boards and their Warp Beasts.

Good luck with the list Jim. Just leave it as it is now, and I will design a new list later on to represent what the current 40K has the Druichi - Dark Eldar represented as.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am 
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Mortoden - congratulations on totally missing my point dude. I strongly advise you to read your own posts in light of what you just wrote.

Your attitude is dismissive and condescending. I'm not talking about fracturing the community, I'm talking about being treated in exactly the way you have treated my input (and others - what exactly was wrong with the baneblade testing that you disregard it so easily?) when it differs from your concept of Epic. That is what makes people unwilling to weigh in on taccoms. That is why over the last year all my DE testing input went directly to Jim, except for a couple of battreps.

I really liked your approach to trying a new way of testing - thought it was a good thing - but now I see your execution I find it no different to what you were complaining about. The DE list has been in Dev for a year, it is ready to be put up for approval. And now you want to throw all that up in the air. How is that different to your issues with slowness of moving to approved status?

I urge you to Think. Reflect. Then type, but I'm going to leave it to others to respond. I'm done for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 am 
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Ok, to avoid digressing more in to character attacks and discussions about tone heres my views in a very boiled down format for the last time.

1. The list is based on the EpicUK list heavily and should be compared to that one to see if it's balanced for tournament use.

2. Good changes:
MW on Incubis extra attacks.
+1 to engage for partisans.
Upgunning BoP with price increase to 125p.

3. Not so good changes:
Executioner/tormentor costing only 500 points allowing for 2 to be taken at 3K points.
Giving warriors a 6+ armour save. They are already better than guardians due to their 5+CC ability.
Removing the Incubis always count as BTS special rule.
Upgunning the BoP without a points increase.

4. I don't think DBAD rule should be considered when trying to develop the list since it's only used in one tournament meta in the world and the list is for global use.

5. I would be very surprised if the list got approved with the changes in my point no 3 still being in. The list is IMO going to be very strong compared to others and potentially not so much fun to face. I'm a active DE players and wouldn't be comfortable bringing it to tournaments without blushing.

Good luck with the list Jim. I'll happily help out to play test it if some reports are needed for approval.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:02 am 
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I do like the list I used at cancon, but I can't take credit for writing it.

http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionshi ... hp?tid=102




Also, I'm for incubi to be BTS or going up in points. Warriors back to no armour. Haven't really used barges so i can't comment. I've played against double titans and it wasn't fun. Executioner needs some testing I'm guessing. Has anyone used it. Or used 2?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:33 am 
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Agree on warriors & incubi as bts. I'm actually fine with the titans they give an alternate playstyle that doesn't compliment the main strengths of the list (that you can essentially hide off board before committing). Plus they're actually really squishy. Ork Boyz in a landa, tyranids, chaos termies with daemons etc will just destroy them. Also, if you have the incubi as bts rule you're then running double bts which is always risky.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:09 pm 
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I actually think incubi auto bts resolves any worries about double titan as the list is then running 3 bts units so good luck to anyone trying that!

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Yeah, with that rule in place in would probably be less of an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Hi all,
Yes, sorry a tad busy with work at the moment. Working on the approval process and writing up the batreps for it.
The last concern i have is with the double titan and double executioner list. And a list with an executioner and a tormentor. So if u want to playtest those in the next two weeks that would be awesome!
Norto suggested the tormentor should get the AA as a25 point upgrade - which i think would be awesome. But at the moment please playtest as is against the core lists for the moment.

I dislike the idea that the archon is the bts. It seems very unDE like in that the other succubi etc will be vying for power, manipulating and scheming to try and get that position. So it would suit their interests for the Archon to take a volcano cannon in the face.
I have really appreciated the support from Greg and dev work done by norto, fruitbat, deb, and others.
Looking forward to it getting approved. Thanks again for your patience Greg.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:40 am 
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Apologies Deb was quoting your post and accidentally deleted it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 am 
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Did you try the CTRL-Z shortcut? It typically works on this site to undelete things.
How could you interact with my post directly?

No-one should be able to delete another persons post by attempting to quote it.

That said I will try and restate it all again.

Thanks for all the good work Jim.

I agree with you that the Archon should not be the BTS, or one of the BTS automatically, especially when his formatios is normally one of the cheapest.

As to the increase in price for the Tormentor, by making the AA a 25 point cost upgrade. I think that would be OK, if you did something to compromise or make the price increase worth it. Perhaps increase the AA range from 30cm to 45cm. 15cm is not that much, as enemy can easily outskirt a single Tormentors AA bubble.

The main reason would be so that enemy aircraft attempting to strafe broken formations of say reaver jetbikes, ravager Flotillas, etc would have to come into the AA bubble of the Tormentor to get at the broken units. There would not be the need to put the broken units as close to the Tormentor as possible. Enemy AC normally have a 30cm/and secondary 15cm range for their weapons. Broken units outside of the 30cm bubble are at strafing AC s mercy. Being the only ground based formation in the DE list, I tend to hide the broken formations in its bubble. Yes enemy artillery and long range weaponry will still be able to finish them off, but it is one less headache to have to deal with.


The second thing I discussed was the Barge of Pleasure. You asked if anyone had used it, and how well it performed, and the powerfulness of its Desolator. Being only range 30cm, with 2BP Disrupt, it is not a main artillery weapon. It is primarily used to soften enemy up before the main assault force strikes. When you have enough units in a formation you can get up to 3 BOP which means 6BP Distrupt. Not bad, and some of the enemy units are actually killed off. The extra BM are what make the difference. Especially at the combat resolution stage.

The BOP is a decent WE, and can move well as a Skimmer. I tend to use them in groups to allow an unharmed BOP to move in front of another BOP that has lost its Shadow Fields. WE block LoS to other WE for weapons fire. The BOP other weapons are limited 45cm, and with Fixed arcs limiting their use. The 2 AT weapons are AT5+ lance, so not a great threat overall. A crit kills off the BOP, and if done by a MW or TK, then the transported formation is auto killed off, otherwise they have a 6+ save from cover before disembarking.

Using 3 BOP and their associated transported units tends to make the formation the BTS. It also limits how many formations you can field, and that has lost me games when I experimented with large formations transported by them. In one game I only had 8 formations because I also had a Titan, and 2 VoP, and 2 Flotillas.

As to seeing lots of Executioner Landing Barges, or A landing Barge and paired Slavebringers, I doubt that the tactic will work well.

I had a game this month against an experimental Black Templars list with my my own Ministorum list. The BT player had chosen to bring his Space craft in on turn 2, dropped some Deathwind Drop pods, and delayed bring his remaining forces - 2 x Landers, each with a formation of landspeeders, and a BT tactical formation with tacticals, lots of Initiates, a dreadnought, and either a SC or a Chaplain. He also delayed his Terminators and his fighter craft. They came in on turn 3.

By turn 3 I had all my formations in position near the main objectives (except his Blitz). I still had 1 formations that could teleport, and I brought it in at the start of turn 3. I had 2 large groups evenly spaced so they were not intermingled, and could hold, or retake objectives. Each was in the 60cm range AA bubble of a Hunter tank (mostly). I had all my formations on Overwatch from the previous round, and had my AC on CAP.

When the BT drop commenced, the BT force picked on the formation closest to the objectives he wanted. My Blitz and right between 2 objectives he had placed 30cm apart. CAP thankfully for him was next to useless, but ground base AA did some damage, but no Crits. Overwatch fire did a lot of damage to his infantry and dreadnought, as well as his lands speeders in one group. However he totally annihilated the formation I had placed next top the point he would likely assault. One was Penitent Engines that had been hurt by his Space Crafts orbital bombardment, the other an Arbites patrol with Rhinos. My counter moves penned him in, moved to deny objectives, and take his Blitz with my Arbites teleported in Interdiction team.

I shot his forces up a lot with my Black Marias, Exorcists, battle sisters, and assaulted one with my Seraphim. I lost some of the Interdiction team from his own support aircraft breaking them, so they could not hold the Blitz. I took T&H and killed off his BTS. Because he had 4 less formations to activate on the turn he dropped in, he was out activated by my forces. I stripped him of 4 of his formations, broke another, and denied him all but 1 objective. He killed of my Penitent Engines, the Arbites Patrol, mauled the Black Marias with his Deathwinds , which I assaulted and killed off automatically, and Interdiction team with his AC. Most of my army was fairly intact though, because I had them support each other, had a decent ground based AA, and more importantly, because I had 11 activations on turn 3 compared to his 5, and possibly because he decided not to use Planet fall to drop his Landers.

Air assaults are sometimes really good, but if you put too many eggs in that basket, the enemy can out activate and manoeuvre you easily that turn and can win if you do not grab enough objectives, and then hold them. Thus why I do not foresee massed air assaults by Dark Eldar in Executioners, or a mix of Slave bringers and executioners. They are so easily killed off by a lucky crit.

Paired Tormentors might still happen with the change in price with the proposed AA change, but then all the ground based AA is lost when you then take 2 of them. My poor broken formations will have nowhere to hide then.

I believe that was roughly what I had posted.


I have copied the above text to a word document, so I can repost it if needed, just in case.

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Last edited by Deb on Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Will try to get some games in with this in the next few weeks. Including using the tormentor.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Deb wrote:
Did you try the CTRL-Z shortcut? It typically works on this site to undelete things.
How could you interact with my post directly?

No-one should be able to delete another persons post by attempting to quote it.


Steve is an admin in the Army Development forums, the edit and quote buttons are directly next to each other and it isn't always immediately clear which one you've clicked, I've done it myself a couple of times...

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Bump - how near to approval is this?

Pretty keen to try this for the EEC but the cut off date for lists is in August so don't want to start painting if it won't be legal.

Do you need more playtest games?

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