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2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:54 am 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
Avatar did a good job in this game though, munching broadsides on his own.

The avatar has done well in 'all' of the several games we've had recently (though i'm happy to chalk that up to my inexperience with the lists used by both sides)

Didn't he just sit there for the previous game, didn't get used in the end? The guardians just jumped past him and munched something.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:42 am 
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The bat rep of DE versus BT, presented by Mic Fair in which the proposed change to Farsight was tested, makes me uneasy about the proposal.

In summary, the issue presented is that allowing the BT to shoot three time is seen by some as potentially OP. In the bat rep, the BT player fails the third activation, is forced to Hold, and then elects to shoot, keeping the BM for failing to activate. So in fact it does not stop the BT from shooting three times as intended!

What it does do is make Rolling Assaults less possible, since failure prevents the assault. This seems wrong, especially since the third formation to activate could contain Farseers, the very individuals who should be able to activate. I am also uncomfortable about restricting the third activation to formations with "Farsight", because this would prevent Aspect formations from assaulting, again stopping the Eldar rolling assault for all intents and purposes.

What other suggestion would achieve the intended result of preventing the BT from making three preemptive shooting attacks on the opposing deployment zone (bearing in mind that this can be achieved with many ground and air formations), without excessively handicapping this and other Eldar armies?

Could it be simply to ban the 'triple retain' from being used in the first activation of the game?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:24 am 
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Hey Ginger, seems you are trying to dismiss the farsight rule after reading results from 1 game - how about we test it a bit more before dismissing.

I think the real danger of the triple retain is not limited to shooting, but the accompanying engagement on the prepped unit.
Perhaps we can get a few more results in before shutting it down and exploring other avenues - have you managed to get any game reports in yet testing the rule?

- Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:03 am 
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JumpingJehovah wrote:
Hey Ginger, seems you are trying to dismiss the farsight rule after reading results from 1 game - how about we test it a bit more before dismissing.

I think the real danger of the triple retain is not limited to shooting, but the accompanying engagement on the prepped unit.
Perhaps we can get a few more results in before shutting it down and exploring other avenues - have you managed to get any game reports in yet testing the rule?

- Kendall


Nicely said Kendall...

So far we only have one game....I would hope the sub-ac for the eldar lists will do some test runs and Batreps, each with their list to see how it may effect them too..Just not theory hammer or be negative on the subject..and that also applies to boarder community.....

OK on that note off to Buy a rubber dingy, I reckon in about week I'm going to need it if the aftermath, of Cyclone Debbie, drops it load of water in land...yep models predict it will end on Brisbane as rain depression.. ::) ::)

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:19 pm 
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I was given to understand that the issue was specifically having the Eldar using 'triple retain Alpha strike' to break / destroy three weak formations.

If the issue is the triple retain in general, then by all means test away.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Personally I feel that more than anything it feeds the advantage of winning strategy on a given turn. Either first turn to VS alpha strike or later turns to wreck formations in short order. The player with strategy already has a big advantage and the triple retain makes it even more pronounced


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:27 pm 
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Flyingthruwater has the right of it Ginger. It's the triple retain ability on a highly maneuverable army with high strat rating with access to some fantastic CC/FF options such as the free avatar and units able to go up to double inspiring.
As well as the options for Triple retain with removing formations with shooting. The army has so many tools and bonus free rules for being able to mitigate it's very few downsides


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:58 am 
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This is at the heart of it. I don't know how we arrived at idea that the issue is one particular list (when there are stronger ones) or triple alpha strike (which hardly anyone does) or that the solution should be something that has wider effect than stopping triple alpha strike. Interestyingly some of those against change are happy with this solution - or at least to test it (because it has minimal effect compared to more radical change?) Others who do want change (don't acknowledge triple apha as an issue) but seem happy with the solution because it applies a bit of a general nerf but have a (varying) list of other changes they want to see too. Lots of people don't like the other changes on those lists.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:37 am 
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Kyrt and I took the 'Mic Fair list' (see 2017 post here http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 84&t=32266) with twin spears for a run yesterday.
We did not test the proposed farsight changes (but i think eldar only did a single retain once), this was just trying to get an understanding of the list and some of the opinions voiced about it both ways on TC.

I took the eldar, Kyrt took the netEA white scar changes for a spin (main changes: faster vindicators, and JimmyZ said to swap storm talon in instead of tbolt). The WS took:
bikes + chaps, bikes + SC, thawk, thawk, landing craft, predA, assaults + chap + vindicators, speeders, speeders, scouts, tbolts

My initial feelings on the elder list were: I’ve got too much artillery, and a BTS im guaranteed to lose when it gets air assaulted.

terrain: just using different coloured sheets of paper for different type, 4 hills, 4 builings, 4 woods.
player skill: advantage to Kyrt but we're in approximately the same ballpark

I don’t have full activation by activation or photos, we weren’t recording formally and play got side-tracked by some rules questions in any case.

Set up, long edge:
Marines garrison speeders and speeders forward (1 on OW) and scouts on OW on a T&H a bit back on the left flank. Assaults deploy on right flank, rest of the marine force in the air.

Eldar garrison smaller rangers forward on OW, across from speeders. Larger rangers garrison off blitz, strung out on OW so BM any air assaults that might occur (on that slight off chance, you know). Rest of the army relativly compact but not intermingled, ex-aut spear in middle of table edge with 1 scorp and 1 VS either side. Ex-ex spears on left flank in front of night spinners, with faclons close by.
Image
cloudy with a chance of air assaults

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Turn 1, marines
(these are broadly in sequence, but a couple might be out of order by 1 or 2 places)
speeders engage rangers, take BM from ranger OW, rangers win rolloff to break speeders with 2 losses
scorpion OW popup on blitz
speeders engage same ranger, no kills again but win rolloff by 2, rangers break back deeper into woods.
night spinners sustain on scouts, kill 1 rhino 1 scout 3BM total
scout marshal
right flank scorpion pop up OW
thakw battlecannons falcons 1BM
thakw battelcannosn falcons 1 firestomr kill
void spinner 3BM on assault no kills
storm talons ground attack guardians 1 kill
falcons fail to marshal and remove BM (highest roll I a 2, so keep 1 BM)
void spinner kills another scout puts 3BM back on
landing craft and preds lands to shoot the clean falcons, 3 kills (note, lander lands in range of T&H objective)
guardians with heavy weapons place BM on preds
assaults double or triple forwards
ex-ex shining spears combine engage pred+lander in FF and win, 2 pred left and lander+preds break (lander was kept out of FF range in assault, the lander+pred placement was a bit tilted so it avoided OW fire from scorpion, which then let spears line up well)
ex-aut shinning spears stay where they are
guardians marshal
rangers stay on OW at turn end.

the two falcons (well 1 falc+1 fire storm) rally on re-roll, the landing craft stays landed but fails to rally

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Turn 2
Honestly can’t remember what happened activation by activation here.

Eldar went first with some fairly inconsequential single activation, then something like:

Marines kill the firestorm in the falcons that just rallied (I just can’t remember how). Void spinner hits assault marines for 2 kills.
Scouts double up to BM ex-ex spears, thawk with chaplain bikes retains and wipes out the spears (rangers overwatch, scorpion overwatches to kill 1 bike, couple of others die in the assault iirc). The bikes then get broken by …something… then shot by 2 night spinners (1 suppressed from BM due to support in the shining spear wipe out), reducing them to two stands.

Guardians get air assaulted by the other bike formation and wiped out. Second OW scorpion owerwatched something at some point but both shot missed. Other falcons failed to activate and shot something for a BM. Ex-aut spear then assault whatever was shot and wipe them, consolidating right back to where they started. Assault marines failed to activate and removed blast markers. Stormtalons fail to activate. Guardians go on overwatch (with all 1 of their heavy weapons).

The lander rallies this time. The SC bikes are the only really punchy marine formation left, now on the elder left flank but with a building between them and nice targets. The remaining marine scout are close with them and on the right flank the assault marines formation still has 4 unit, but is out of close combat range.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Turn 3
Marines win but can’t get into a nice target as there are still five rangers strung across the elder deployment zone + an awkward building.
Marines engage the night spinner on right flank (now clear, removed BM end of turn rally) with scouts. Scouts do no kills, spinners do 1, then +1 from lucky ranger support fire, so the scouts lose and break. SC bikes then roll in to do it properly and wipe the spinners, but end off objectives on elder table edge.

We did 1 or 2 activations but it was getting late so called it an elder win here. The only really dangerous marine formation left was the bikes, and they were now out of harms way. Eldar had void spinner, void spinner, rangers, scorpion, scorpion, ex-aut spears, falcons, and guardians left and healthy to grab objective and gobble up small remaining marine formations. Probably 2–0 to marines. Depending on rolls and thakws landing to contest it might have gone to t4, but if so there would have been very little of the marine army left by that point.

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Last edited by Apocolocyntosis on Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:45 am 
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Overall: despite both bike air assaults hitting home, the marines didn't really get any traction. The twin-spear list worked out a bit better than i think both of us anticipated, though I still wasn't overly impressed by spears. Lance wasn't much use to me, and 5+FF isn't much to boast, most of the work was done on +2 inspiring, not kills. That said, the awkwardness of taking spaceships and pods in white scars resulted in a better match up for the eldar than might normally be the case vs marines.

I didn't get many outright kills in assaults, most of it was done on resolution. That said, my shooting rolls, even when token, were probably above average in accuracy (blind scorpions excluded :D ).

Interestingly there were two assaults where eldar rolled 1-1 for resolution and a third with a 1-2 roll … all three still won by eldar (this isn't a balance point, just very a very unlucky set of assault res rolls which amazingly fell in situations where it didn't matter)

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Thanks Apoc for the batrep. It is interesting watching others use a list i have got to know well. Using the spears to clipping assault and relying on the 2 inspiring is a major use of them. BM prep and inspiring alone you can often go into a clipping assault with a +4 advantage which in many cases is nearly an auto win. By minimising the casualties you take back on the spears preserves their integrity to survive and continue to dish out punches as needed later in the game. Don't forget that amazing 35cm consolidate to reposition. Just breaking your opponents formations is great for little consequences. Additionally if you have your spears in your AA bubble they are surprisingly hard to eliminate with an air assault. The skimmer ability allows you to avoid the worst of most engagements (as most damage comes from CC) coupled with a 4 up save. But its no secret that I reckon the Spears are hands down the best aspect choice by far!

Thanks again for the report.

Cheers

Mic


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:51 pm 
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yeah that's pretty much how they played. In both the spear initiated assaults (ex-ex breaking preds+ lander t1, ex-aut wiping out something i forget t2) they hopped forwards then 35cm'd back to their deployment zone … but *someone* had shot out most of my AA by turn 2 … and even overwatching scorpions didn't help!.

Overall the play above resulted in almost all of the eldar army still alive by end of t2 being sat exactly where it had started the game. 4 EoV never moved; falcons, guardians and rangers never moved; spears hopped out and back.

The additional value of the spears in turn 3, as Kyrt mentioned last night and as has been pointed out (possibly by you!) in other threads about this list, was the 105cm march to take objectives t3.

Interesting to play a list i wouldn't have picked for myself.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Steve (Beffcake40000) posted this in his blog recently regarding his frustrations about BT. I think that there are many gamers that agree with some if not all of what Steve said. Just like there are those that disagree.

http://d6addiction.blogspot.com.au/2017 ... n.html?m=1

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:15 pm 
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I remember discussing this topic at length with Steve @ CanCon this year and his intentions to post the above blog.

I can't agree more with what Steve puts forward and really hope more people that I know are behind the push for a change chime in as well

+1 from me

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Ginger if you're looking for a complete list to the Australian tourney player's frustrations read the blog posted above.
This would be pretty much everything we have a problem with.


Last edited by Mard on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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