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[Rule]Snap Fire: many questions

 Post subject: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:43 pm 
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After the Volcano In Paris where I was the referee, it appears that players had many questions (before, during and after the event) about the Snap Fire special rule. I had to do some choices on "how to handle it" to solve some cases for this event and french players are very interested in your opinions. We'd like to game to be the same everywhere and not having to create a french NetEpic rule book.

Sometimes the "raw" Read As Written method is OK but sometimes you ask yourself, what the writter meant or how is it supposed/intented to be played ? Also, is the term "snap fire" really referring to the Snap Fire Rule ?

So I've checked the whole rulebook and "Snap Fire" appeared 18 times:

p17: Order Table reaction, first row, last column
p17: Command (Special Ability)
p18: Movement sequence, 2) Activating Units
p19: 3)Enemy Response, 1)Firing at a moving unit
p19: 3)Enemy Response, 2) Firing at a charging unit
p19: Snap Fire (Special Rule)
p19: Quick-draw (Special Ability)
p19: Fire on the fly (Special Ability)
p20: Point Defense (X) (Special Ability)
p22: Pop-up Attacks (Special Rule)
p28: Forest
p32: The Combat phase introduction
p33: 1) First Fire Segment, last table row "Snap Fire"
p34: Anti-Aircraft (Special Ability)
p34: To-Hit Roll Greater than 6 (Special Rule)
p47: Titans/Firing (Special Rule)
p50: Fire on the Fly (Appendix B Special Abilities)
p58: Glossary (Snap Fire)


According to the overall text from page 18 to "Special Rule: Snap Fire" on page 19, if a "standard" unit (not a titan or a command to make things easier to understand) wants to do a "Snap Fire" action, I need to activate it when an enemy unit do a movement.

Q1: does it means that I have not already revealed my unit order ? As the term "activated" is used on page 19 at 3)1), if I have already shown a unit first fire order, this means that I have already activated it.

Q2: if I have already revealed my first fire order on my unit, am I allowed to do a "Snap Fire" action against a unit this is moving to engage it in close combat ?

Q3: according to "Snap Fire special Rule p19", my whole detachment that have performed a snap fire (in reaction to a distant move or a direct charge) counts as having fired this turn: even if it was charged by a single enemy stand whereas I had 10 stands in my detachment ?

Q4: can I perform a "Snap Fire" against a unit performing a "pop-up" attack if I have revealed my first fire order ?

Q5.1: titans can do some "Snap Fire" with each weapon and the titan does not count has having been activated (p19 "Snap Fire Special Rule) ?

Q5.2: Or is it only for their AA weapon (p47: Titans/Firing) that can be activated to snap fire at flyers/floaters/[skimmer performing a pop-up attack] even if the titan has already moved in advance or has already shown its order as it's indicated by "the weapons are considered independent from each other"

Q5.3: p47: Titans/Firing, about "the weapons are considered independent from each other", does it mean all titan weapons or only AA weapons are considered independent from titan other weapons ?

Q6.1: p20 Point Defense (X) Special Ability: I am allowed to snap fire at a moving unit (charging me or not) with my point defense even if my unit has already moved ? PD rule let me understand that the reply is YES but it's just to be 100% sure "Point Defense systems always act as though they were on First Fire Orders no matter what the unit’s actual orders are, and may be thought of as a separate unit."

Q6.2: If 6.1 is YES, if a perform a charge move and engaged a stand in close combat, am I allowed to shoot at it during First Fire Segment ?

Q6.3: if Q6.2 is no, am I allowed to use my PD to snap fire a unit that is engaging in close-combat even if I have already engaged a close combat against another unit ?

Q6.4: if I have engaged or have been engaged in a close combat with my stand/vehicle equipped with PD(s) and have not used them before close combat and my stand/unit have survived close combat, am I allowed to fire them in advance fire segment ?

Q7.1: when declaring a "snap fire" against a moving enemy unit, do I have to declare all my detachments that will perform it ?

Q7.2: If Yes, when my "declared snap firing" detachment have various weapon range or do not see the enemy before a "line of sight" point can I declare another Snap Fire with them ?


Sorry for this big question list, my intention is to understand better how "Snap Fire" should be played, not how each group play it.

According to your replies, there will surely be another question list... ;D


Last edited by scream on Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 pm 
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Very good list of questions. I'll have a read through the relevant sections as listed above when I can and get back to you on this.

Even without a read-through, I'm also certain that Q6 would be yes.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:31 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Very good list of questions. I'll have a read through the relevant sections as listed above when I can and get back to you on this.

Even without a read-through, I'm also certain that Q6 would be yes.


Thanks Magnus for your reply, I've corrected some syntax errors and I've added some questions to Q6 (now Q6.1)


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Arggg, 1 week old and still no reply... :'(


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:38 pm 
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scream wrote:
Arggg, 1 week old and still no reply... :'(


Hi!

I'm swamped with work, so if Magnus doesn't field these in a few days more, drop me a PM.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:53 am 
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Whoops, sorry, I keep forgetting. I'll have a look now.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:42 am 
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Note that the following answers are only my personal opinions on the questions raised above and do not necessarily represent the whole of the NetEpic community, any significant portion thereof, or otherwise represent "how the game should be played".


Q1: Yes. Well, mostly yes. One can reveal a detachment with First Fire orders so as to see what other enemy detachments are doing. This would, generally speaking, count them as having been activated for the Movement phase, even though they have not yet fired. However, that said, a player should be able to use any detachment that has First Fire orders - whether revealed or not - to make a Snap Fire action so long as that detachment has not already made a Snap Fire action so far this turn. The "Snap Fire Special Rule" section on page 19 makes no mention of revealed or not, and while that could just be an oversight, I feel that any detachment that has not already fired that turn should be able to act thus, so long as it meets the other requirements. Note that a Command model that has moved should NOT be able to make a Snap Fire attack.

Q2: Yes, so long as that detachment has not already made a Snap Fire action that turn.

Q3: Yes.

Q4: Yes. See Q1.

Q5.1: Correct, so long as the Titan has not moved (or fired that weapon) this turn.

Q5.2: I would say that an AA weapon would still be able to Snap Fire after the Titan has moved, but no other weapon type could. This is because an AA weapon is always considered to be on FF orders, regardless of the orders that the Titan has.

Q5.3: All of them. See the second paragraph under the "Snap Fire Special Rules" on page 19.

Q6.1: Yes, you are correct. PD, like AA, is always considered to be on FF orders.

Q6.2: Ooh, that's a tricky one. This is partially covered by existing rules, but not entirely. This would depend on two factors.
___ A: Faction: Only Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranid are allowed to shoot into a Close Combat at all. Thus the firing model would have to be one of these to even consider it. [Cold-Blooded rule on page 34]
___ B: Pinning Class: So long as the model with PD is not pinned by an enemy, it should probably be allowed to use PD to fire at the enemy in this case. For example, a Land Raider could fire it's PD at an Infantry stand it just charged, but not at a Vyper, Baneblade, or a Titan. Note that this is just opinion, and is not covered in the rules. This could also set up a dangerous precedent of allowing non-pinned models to fire out of a CC situation, so use this at your risk. In other words, while it may seem logical to allow a charging model that is not pinned to use PD weapons, it is probably safer to say "Well, you decided to Charge into CC, so ... no."

[Edit: Q6.2] Er, scratch that. I just looked at the Point Defense rules on page 20 again, and they specifically support doing exactly that. The relevant passage is: "They may be used in the Movement Phase in order to Snap Fire at the target of a charge (with the normal –1 To-Hit penalty)..." However, this is a violation of Snap Fire not being able to be used on a non-moving target.

Q6.3: Regardless to the answer to 6.2, a model should be able to use PD to fire at a model that is Charging at it with the intent of entering CC, and without the -1 for Snap Firing. In the Point Defense rules on page 20, it says: "... or to gun down a Charging enemy (without the –1 penalty)..." This is the primary purpose for PD. Of course, this assumes that the model has not used all of it's PD for the turn as yet. Once the model has made a number of shots with PD equal to the (X), then it's PD is done for that turn.

Q6.4: Should be able to, yes. I cannot see any reason not to. Remember that the PD kinda-sorta count as a separate model, and as per the description of the Advance fire phase on page 32: "If a model was charged and fought in Close Combat, it may not fire (however if other models in the same detachment were not engaged, they may fire)."

Q7.1: My interpretation of the Snap Fire rules on page 19 is that one detachment is activated to Snap Fire at a time. Once each detachment's Snap Fire shots have resolved, the moving detachment would continue moving until such time as another player decides to activate another Snap Firing detachment. Now, the second or subsequent ones could be activated immediately after the last one, or at any further point along the movement of the moving detachment. In other words, no, the firing player does not have to declare all Snap Firing detachments at the same time and in fact cannot do so.

Q7.2: A Snap Fire can be declared at any point along the movement of the moving detachment. A FF detachment would have to wait until it has LOS to the target, and hopefully is in range (remember that you cannot measure before firing).

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:30 pm 
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Hi !

About Q1 and Q4 and the answers. At p18 :
Quote:
2) Activating Units
Pick a detachment and reveal its orders, then make any desired movement.


and
Quote:
1) Units on First Fire Orders: Activating a unit on First Fire Orders is usually done to Snap Fire at a moving enemy, but it may be done to gain a tactical advantage


and p19
Quote:
3) Enemy Response
1) Firing at a moving unit: When an enemy unit is activated and moves, you may respond by shooting at it. This is termed Snap Fire and is detailed below. Any number of your detachments may be activated to Snap Fire in response to a single enemy movement. This is an exception to the “players alternate activating detachments” procedure.


So, for me, you MUST activate a unit to do a snap fire. And to activate a unit, you MUST reveal it order. So, a unit that has already been activated can not make a Snap Fire. Instead of, these setences are not decided


Q5.2 : at p16
Quote:
3) Charge Orders
These units sacrifice firepower for speed and the ability to engage the enemy

When a unit has a charge order, it can not fire. So, regarless the answer, the titans are a exception at this rule ? Because a warlock titan with two AA wings and its "-1 to hit" power is very hard ^^.

Q6 : however, the rule says that a PD fire with the others weapons when it is not use at snap fire. So, a unit with advance order can use it PD at Avdance segment with the others weapons and a unit with charge orders can not fire and consequently PD can not fire at the combat phase if I understand the rule. However, if a PD can always fire (and when ?), ork bikes, squats bikes and imperial bikes are more powerful that SM bike (the first can move and fire whereas the SM bike can not charge and fire).

For me, PD can be used at snap fire only the unit has not a Charge order (and even the unit has been activated) and if PD is not used at snap fire, it can be used with the others weapons (at first fire segment or advance segment according the order).

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Hi Cedric,

My questions are not intended to be replied by us, french players but by the guy(s) who wrote the rules. I'm more interested in "what was supposed to be written or explained" rather than "this is what I understand and how I play it".


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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:20 pm 
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Good points csuia, except that you have missed two critical points about PD. They are always considered to have First Fire orders (regardless of the orders given to the model) and they are considered to be a different model, much like how Titan weapons are.

Thus while a Charging model cannot fire, any PD that it has is considered to be a different model that moves, lives, and dies with the model that has Charge orders, but can still fire in FF. See my [Edit: Q6.2] above, as the rules actually specifically state that PD can fire at the target of a Charge. As I kinda stated there, I do think that this is a bad rule and should be removed from Platinum as it violates a basic rule about Snap Fire. However, it is in Gold, thus it has to be considered.

You do realize that the "minus 1 to hit" is a penalty that makes it more difficult for the model making the Snap Fire to hit the target? You seem to be implying that it is a strength, but it is not.

As to Q1/Q4, I may be changing my mind about that. In reading through it again, it does seem like it is trying to say "... one of your formations with un-revealed First Fire orders." As revealing the order activates the formation and the Snap Fire rules state that you have to activate the formation to Snap Fire. As most formations cannot be activated more than once per turn, revealing the order would probably prevent them from being able to Snap Fire.
_______________

Just saw your post there scream. Do note that I am a relative newcomer to NetEpic. While I am developing the Points Formula, that (and the Chaos Rewards/Mutations) are my only significant contributions to NetEpic. I was not involved with creating any current or past version of NetEpic. As far as I can tell, the only remaining "creator" of NetEpic is primarch.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Hi!

Instead of tackling each question, I will describe what the "intent" behind the rules were when they were designed. I am aware and agree that the rules as written in many instances are not well described or too open to interpretation (as well as confusing).

This is a by product of having people whom know the rules too well, but omit too much when writing them down amusing an equal level of knowledge of them (my eternal problem).

However since you have asked for "intent" of purpose of the rules, this is what I remember them to be.

I. Snap Fire

The intent was to give formations some form of "interdiction" capacity. Since it was deemed that stock second edition movement was a little too "permissive".

To be eligible to snap fire the formation needed to be on first fire orders and could only be used against another formation that was being activated by your opponent and was actively "moving". In other words you can't snap fire a stationary formation. Even a formation that can moves, but does not could not be engaged by snap fire.

Movement needs to occur and the moment it occurs need to have LOS as per the standard rules.

To intent here was to avoid having snap fire used against formations that has not been activated or don't move (problem seen during the 1st edition days), since it lead to some "gamesmanship" issues like taking snap fire shots at formations not necessarily in the immediate threat zone or to target high value targets before they were activated/moved.

Therefore snap fire could only be taken against a enemy formation your opponent has activated and is currently executing its turn in accordance to its orders..

Also, the formation performing the snap firing must have not been activated previously (if it has it cannot snap fire). You also must reveal your order when you are to perform snap fire (this would prove to the opponent that the formation was eligible to snap fire by being on first fire orders).

Once the snap fire is executed that counts as that formation being activated.

Snap firing involves the whole formation, regardless if all of them get to shoot or not (there are exceptions).

Snap Fire CAN be used against formations using pop-up attacks. HOWEVER, the snap fire must be taken immediately AFTER the pop-up formation has been activated and resolved its own shooting, then the snap firer can resolver their own attacks. Also, any all snap firing against the formation that just performed a pop-up attack must be taken BEFORE the opponent activates his next formation.

This simulates the narrow window the opponent has to engage such formations using pop-ups before they hide again.

There are exceptions to this:

1. PD systems were intended to simulate a defense against close assault, mainly for vehicles. Since without them it was too easy to overwhelm vehicles in CC.

PD systems may fire against elements that engage it in CC, regardless of orders. This is a passive benefit, only eligible to being used if engaged in CC, not if the element with PD initiates CC (it would be too overpowered used that way).

2. Special weapons systems.

For example certain weapons on titans due to specialized function may fire in response to enemy elements (snap fire) even when the overall formation (titan) has been activated. Its probably easier to view these weapon systems as an additional element that acts "independently" of the rest of the formation or model.

This is what we hoped to achieve with the rules, but years of add-ons, revisions and such always add unintended consequences to the mix. Not to mention the host of additional units and abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:04 pm 
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Thanks for the insight into the intent primarch.

With that in mind, I propose to delete a small section of the text on page 20 that reads: "... Snap Fire at the target of a charge (with the normal –1 To-Hit penalty) or ..." In my mind, this is an errata fix for an error that should not be in the rules at all, and should affect Gold as well as any subsequent versions.

In other words, the passage would be changed from:

They may be used in the Movement Phase in order to Snap Fire at the target of a charge (with the normal –1 To-Hit penalty) or to gun down a Charging enemy (without the –1 penalty), or they may fire in the Combat Phase when the model make it’s normal ranged attacks.

to

They may be used in the Movement Phase in order to gun down a Charging enemy (without the –1 penalty), or they may fire in the Combat Phase when the model make it’s normal ranged attacks.

There are, of course, a few other places where the language could be a bit clearer, but this is a blatant error introduced by some unknown party that needs (IMHO) to be removed. Does anyone else agree? [Everyone should feel free to respond on this: US, FR, or otherwise.]

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:59 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Thanks for the insight into the intent primarch.

With that in mind, I propose to delete a small section of the text on page 20 that reads: "... Snap Fire at the target of a charge (with the normal –1 To-Hit penalty) or ..." In my mind, this is an errata fix for an error that should not be in the rules at all, and should affect Gold as well as any subsequent versions.

In other words, the passage would be changed from:

They may be used in the Movement Phase in order to Snap Fire at the target of a charge (with the normal –1 To-Hit penalty) or to gun down a Charging enemy (without the –1 penalty), or they may fire in the Combat Phase when the model make it’s normal ranged attacks.

to

They may be used in the Movement Phase in order to gun down a Charging enemy (without the –1 penalty), or they may fire in the Combat Phase when the model make it’s normal ranged attacks.

There are, of course, a few other places where the language could be a bit clearer, but this is a blatant error introduced by some unknown party that needs (IMHO) to be removed. Does anyone else agree? [Everyone should feel free to respond on this: US, FR, or otherwise.]


Hi!

That looks good. We'll see what the general consensus is and that can go into the errata queue.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:43 am 
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Hi,

first, thanks for your replies all :)

I think a problem comes from the use of "activating" in different places.

According to page "18 2) Activating Units", we could understand that an "Activating" action is "Revealing an order". So once I've revealed the order for a detachment on First Fire, it's considered as having been "Activated" and I could not perform any "Snap Fire" action with it as according to page 19 3) 2), I need to "Activate" my detachment.

Maybe we could replace some sentences to introduce the difference between "revealing an order" (that's a partial activation in the case of First Fire Order) and "fully activating" (IE: full movement for a Charge Order or has "Fired in Snap Fire (with -1 or not penalty)" or has "Fired during First Fire Segment" for a First Fire Order).

From what Peter reply, I understand how the "Snap Fire" was intented to be played but that's not how the rules fully explain it (as some parts are contradictory).


Last edited by scream on Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Rule]Snap Fire: many questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Er, what? You seem to be contradicting yourself there scream, and also contradicting what primarch posted.

Primarch said that the intent was that a detachment that has activated cannot Snap Fire. At the beginning of your post there, you state that the rules say the same thing, though not phrased well. At the end of your post, you seem to be saying that a detachment can Snap Fire even if it's order has been revealed. The statement at the end of your post contradicts the earlier ones. Please explain more clearly what you are trying to say.

No, please do not open a different thread about Point Defense. The issues are inter-related and you have questions about both in your OP. Opening a different thread at this time would make it seem like you are trying to confuse the issue.

Your last sentence is correct. The phrasing is a bit off, perhaps: "A formation or model that has Activated cannot make any Snap Fire later in that turn, even if it is Command. There are two exceptions to this: PD and AA."

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