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New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback

 Post subject: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:06 am 
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Hi all, thankyou for all your feedback over the past few weeks about the Squat War machines.

I've taken all the discussion and put it together with the proposed changes and ideas. These rules are now ready for heavy playtesting and tweaking.

* All War Engines lost a point of CC, to give them a point of weakness in engagements
* All Colossus-based engines now have unified critical hit effects, taken from the Cadian Leviathan.
* Squat Leviathan brought into line with the Cadian one. I've had to take down the range on the Doomsday as 120cm is a bit on the nose. I've re-added Thick Rear Armour. I am unsure about the price, and weather the new fighting platform rule can be abused when transporting some of the shootier squat units (Trikes? Robots? Thunderers? They bring a lot more shooting than the Cadians)

* After bouncing around on a Artillery, then Assaulty, Land Train, I got some well deserved feedback saying "Let people design their own roles for the Land Train". I have therefore putforward a more 'general jack of all trades train" that I am actually the most happiest about.


You can now build quite different trains with each of the four cars. I tried, as rule of thumb to make each cart "Slightly worse than half a ATML weapon" so that a full 4 car train comes in at the power of a Reaver Titan (once you include the 2 battlecannons and Quake Cannon on the engine. It also sticks closest to the fluff.

I would like to see if this train can be broken. I've tried to see what happens when you take 4 of one car but it seems to come up at a power level comparable or slightly less than other WE's. I am confident on the 'flavour' of this train design but it is likely that there will be a fair few +1/-1 stat changes after playtesting.

Please post all feedback in this thread!

*Oh and please excuse the crappy photos I had to rip from 20-year old GW publications. I hope to replace them with newer, better photos of fan painted models.


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:51 pm 
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Looks great, just what I need to get me painting and play testing. :)

Particularly like the land train.
I like how the 2BP MW stacks up with the mortar car, so you can keep it artillery if you want.
I also think two dragons and two berserkers will be a flavourful brawler. And quite tasty at 475 points. Looks like quite a few different builds would be viable. :)


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:01 pm 
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So you are still gonna go with the idea that the Land Train is based on the reaver titan as far as protection and power level huh? I think that is not an accurate representation of the land train at all.

Look back through the old 2nd edition game and compare the Squat super heavies with the Imperial Titans.

Leviathans had as much firepower and as many void shields as two warhound titans (taking warhounds in squads of two was how you took warhounds back then).

Colossus had two more void shields and about as much firepower as a Reaver Titan.

The Land Train had one more void shield than a Warlord titan and with the right battlecars, could have just about the same firepower.

What made all of the Squat Super Heavy Vehicles not quite as good as those titans was that as soon as the last void shield went down on the squat super heavies, the next shot was almost always powerful enough to just destroy it outright.

Titans had an extra layer of protection that made you choose a location on the titan, based off of how much of the titan you could see and what direction the titan was facing. Then you had to roll aiming dice, which sometimes made you hit a different area of the titan you were hoping for, or in a lot of cases, completely miss or have your shot hit blocking terrain instead.

The reason I bring up the way all of this used to work is because i have had discussions about Squat super heavies and how they compare to titans many many times. And one overlying thing that a lot of people don't seem to see is what power level the Squat Super Heavies really are. The only thing that ever kept squat super heavies from being just like titans was that aim dice mechanic.

In epic Armageddon, that aim dice mechanic is gone, and now all of the titans have been brought down closer to where the Squat super heavy vehicles already were.

So with that in mind, why does anyone think that the Squats do not deserve to have War Engines on par with the Titans of other races?

Why are they being limited to the power level of only the reaver titan? ( which after reading a few bat reps on this very site, list reavers as ok but sort of meh to begin with?)

Why can't we have the squat war engines represent more like I've mentioned above?...i.e. Leviathan similar to two warhounds, colossus similar to a reaver, and the Land Train similar to a Warlord. While the Cyclops falling between a reaver and a warlord. Both in firepower and in protection on all of these WE?

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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:25 pm 
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
So you are still gonna go with the idea that the Land Train is based on the reaver titan as far as protection and power level huh? I think that is not an accurate representation of the land train at all.

Look back through the old 2nd edition game and compare the Squat super heavies with the Imperial Titans.

Leviathans had as much firepower and as many void shields as two warhound titans (taking warhounds in squads of two was how you took warhounds back then).

Colossus had two more void shields and about as much firepower as a Reaver Titan.

The Land Train had one more void shield than a Warlord titan and with the right battlecars, could have just about the same firepower.

What made all of the Squat Super Heavy Vehicles not quite as good as those titans was that as soon as the last void shield went down on the squat super heavies, the next shot was almost always powerful enough to just destroy it outright.

Titans had an extra layer of protection that made you choose a location on the titan, based off of how much of the titan you could see and what direction the titan was facing. Then you had to roll aiming dice, which sometimes made you hit a different area of the titan you were hoping for, or in a lot of cases, completely miss or have your shot hit blocking terrain instead.

The reason I bring up the way all of this used to work is because i have had discussions about Squat super heavies and how they compare to titans many many times. And one overlying thing that a lot of people don't seem to see is what power level the Squat Super Heavies really are. The only thing that ever kept squat super heavies from being just like titans was that aim dice mechanic.

In epic Armageddon, that aim dice mechanic is gone, and now all of the titans have been brought down closer to where the Squat super heavy vehicles already were.

So with that in mind, why does anyone think that the Squats do not deserve to have War Engines on par with the Titans of other races?

Why are they being limited to the power level of only the reaver titan? ( which after reading a few bat reps on this very site, list reavers as ok but sort of meh to begin with?)

Why can't we have the squat war engines represent more like I've mentioned above?...i.e. Leviathan similar to two warhounds, colossus similar to a reaver, and the Land Train similar to a Warlord. While the Cyclops falling between a reaver and a warlord. Both in firepower and in protection on all of these WE?

Hi RZ, I never played Squats back in 2nd ed - it's always interesting to hear the history.
I think the biggest issue with having more powerful WEs for the Squats would be pricing them. A 800pt WE in a 3000pt game is such a suck on activation count that it's rarely seen. Even 600pt WE are pretty rare in the games my group plays (though I love my Gargant... :) )
Secondly, if the Squat WE were priced over 500 points, you'd only be able to take one. Since they are such a strong part of the list, I think most players would prefer the chance to take 2 slightly weaker WE's rather than one stronger one.


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:11 pm 
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Thanks for posting these experimental rules and all the work on getting this list moving forward.
Feedback: Ok, so I haven't playtested the changes, just some questions/comments. :D

1) I like the changes to the Colossus, Leviathan, Cyclops. My only hesitation is the Crit on Leviathan could be devastating if it strands the WE + attached Warriors/Warlord/thunderers in a bad spot. The warriors would not be able to move anywhere without being out of formation.
2) Most (all?) other lists dont allow a WE to transport units from a different formation (with the exception of Aircraft). I did see a reason for that on these boards somewhere, but can't find it now. That might invalidate the Leviathan option as a stand-alone WE?
3) Land-train - I was hoping for 20cm move and at least some kind of AA shot... :(
4) FF EA(+2) on Dragon and FF EA(+1) + CC EA(+1) Berzerker Carts might be too powerful I think. That gives 6 dice for DC and +8 EA dice, 14 total if i take any combination of 4 of these. That's way more than either a Reaver or a Gargant and costs me only 425-525 points. Maybe EA(+1) on the Dragon. For the Berzerker, either get rid of FF EA(+1), or make the EA(+1) FF OR CC, not FF AND CC.


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:59 am 
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Loving the revisions here, train sounds awesome and I can't wait to send one out for a run.

@Taiaha I think the leviathan is just mirroring the imperial gaurd one from cadia which is why it has that crit table. Yes it does suck... But since most crits in this game kill you outright...

Also speed on the train might make it more viable as a pure assault option? Kinda cool when you think about it? AA shouldn't be a problem with the amount of thunderfires people's could run.


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:15 pm 
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taiaha wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
So you are still gonna go with the idea that the Land Train is based on the reaver titan as far as protection and power level huh? I think that is not an accurate representation of the land train at all.

Look back through the old 2nd edition game and compare the Squat super heavies with the Imperial Titans.

Leviathans had as much firepower and as many void shields as two warhound titans (taking warhounds in squads of two was how you took warhounds back then).

Colossus had two more void shields and about as much firepower as a Reaver Titan.

The Land Train had one more void shield than a Warlord titan and with the right battlecars, could have just about the same firepower.

What made all of the Squat Super Heavy Vehicles not quite as good as those titans was that as soon as the last void shield went down on the squat super heavies, the next shot was almost always powerful enough to just destroy it outright.

Titans had an extra layer of protection that made you choose a location on the titan, based off of how much of the titan you could see and what direction the titan was facing. Then you had to roll aiming dice, which sometimes made you hit a different area of the titan you were hoping for, or in a lot of cases, completely miss or have your shot hit blocking terrain instead.

The reason I bring up the way all of this used to work is because i have had discussions about Squat super heavies and how they compare to titans many many times. And one overlying thing that a lot of people don't seem to see is what power level the Squat Super Heavies really are. The only thing that ever kept squat super heavies from being just like titans was that aim dice mechanic.

In epic Armageddon, that aim dice mechanic is gone, and now all of the titans have been brought down closer to where the Squat super heavy vehicles already were.

So with that in mind, why does anyone think that the Squats do not deserve to have War Engines on par with the Titans of other races?

Why are they being limited to the power level of only the reaver titan? ( which after reading a few bat reps on this very site, list reavers as ok but sort of meh to begin with?)

Why can't we have the squat war engines represent more like I've mentioned above?...i.e. Leviathan similar to two warhounds, colossus similar to a reaver, and the Land Train similar to a Warlord. While the Cyclops falling between a reaver and a warlord. Both in firepower and in protection on all of these WE?

Hi RZ, I never played Squats back in 2nd ed - it's always interesting to hear the history.
I think the biggest issue with having more powerful WEs for the Squats would be pricing them. A 800pt WE in a 3000pt game is such a suck on activation count that it's rarely seen. Even 600pt WE are pretty rare in the games my group plays (though I love my Gargant... :) )
Secondly, if the Squat WE were priced over 500 points, you'd only be able to take one. Since they are such a strong part of the list, I think most players would prefer the chance to take 2 slightly weaker WE's rather than one stronger one.


I can totally understand wanting to field more war engines. But having them cost less points by toning down their firepower isn't really the answer to that problem because it creates even more problems. One of those being spamming those low cost war engines to a rediculous point in higher point games.

I know people play 3000 points in tournaments but honestly, Epic was never really designed with such a low point level in mind. It has always been more about playing massive games with many models per side.

I do understand people do want to play tournaments though and at such high points you would never really be able to finish one in a decent amount of time. So how then, do you balance the two problems?

My answer would be increase the points to 4500, start the tournament earlier in the day, and time the turns.

This lets you play the more expensive models, yet keep the games fast because those points aren't spent on tons of tiny models that you spend many minutes moving, and also keeps you thinking fast about what you are going to do because of the limited amount of time you have to do it in.

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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:31 pm 
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Interesting ideas, I'll enjoy trying them out.

I think that your later post mentioning Thundrfires is going to be the main discussion.

Main changes I'm fine with.

From my point of view I would still go with a land train of Cab plus dragon and berserker as my variant of choice.

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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:55 pm 
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taiaha wrote:
Thanks for posting these experimental rules and all the work on getting this list moving forward.
Feedback: Ok, so I haven't playtested the changes, just some questions/comments. :D

1) I like the changes to the Colossus, Leviathan, Cyclops. My only hesitation is the Crit on Leviathan could be devastating if it strands the WE + attached Warriors/Warlord/thunderers in a bad spot. The warriors would not be able to move anywhere without being out of formation.
2) Most (all?) other lists dont allow a WE to transport units from a different formation (with the exception of Aircraft). I did see a reason for that on these boards somewhere, but can't find it now. That might invalidate the Leviathan option as a stand-alone WE?


That is a fair comment to chase up on. The Cadian one has a note that says that the attached Leviathan can only carry units in its own formation. As for the independent Leviathan, we've had one right up to 1.4, and never heard of a major complaints. That's not to say there isn't a broken trick somewhere that I don't know about. Can you dig up the thread or reason?

Quote:
3) Land-train - I was hoping for 20cm move and at least some kind of AA shot... :(
4) FF EA(+2) on Dragon and FF EA(+1) + CC EA(+1) Berzerker Carts might be too powerful I think. That gives 6 dice for DC and +8 EA dice, 14 total if i take any combination of 4 of these. That's way more than either a Reaver or a Gargant and costs me only 425-525 points. Maybe EA(+1) on the Dragon. For the Berzerker, either get rid of FF EA(+1), or make the EA(+1) FF OR CC, not FF AND CC.


I certainly hope it's powerful! You're paying 500 points for a firefight monster and after chugging around at 15cm to get into that firefight (doubling or marching which ruins your chance of using the Doomsday cannon effectively) then you want it to be somewhat effective when it gets there on turn 3.

Note that I don't think that it's much more powerful than any other 500 point firefight unit you can build in other lists, and it's still weak in direct close combat, (so terminators or CC titans/Gargants are going to pop it).

I will consider toning it back but only after some 'ground test' real life plays.


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:01 am 
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
taiaha wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
So you are still gonna go with the idea that the Land Train is based on the reaver titan as far as protection and power level huh? I think that is not an accurate representation of the land train at all.

Look back through the old 2nd edition game and compare the Squat super heavies with the Imperial Titans.

Leviathans had as much firepower and as many void shields as two warhound titans (taking warhounds in squads of two was how you took warhounds back then).

Colossus had two more void shields and about as much firepower as a Reaver Titan.

The Land Train had one more void shield than a Warlord titan and with the right battlecars, could have just about the same firepower.

What made all of the Squat Super Heavy Vehicles not quite as good as those titans was that as soon as the last void shield went down on the squat super heavies, the next shot was almost always powerful enough to just destroy it outright.

Titans had an extra layer of protection that made you choose a location on the titan, based off of how much of the titan you could see and what direction the titan was facing. Then you had to roll aiming dice, which sometimes made you hit a different area of the titan you were hoping for, or in a lot of cases, completely miss or have your shot hit blocking terrain instead.

The reason I bring up the way all of this used to work is because i have had discussions about Squat super heavies and how they compare to titans many many times. And one overlying thing that a lot of people don't seem to see is what power level the Squat Super Heavies really are. The only thing that ever kept squat super heavies from being just like titans was that aim dice mechanic.

In epic Armageddon, that aim dice mechanic is gone, and now all of the titans have been brought down closer to where the Squat super heavy vehicles already were.

So with that in mind, why does anyone think that the Squats do not deserve to have War Engines on par with the Titans of other races?

Why are they being limited to the power level of only the reaver titan? ( which after reading a few bat reps on this very site, list reavers as ok but sort of meh to begin with?)

Why can't we have the squat war engines represent more like I've mentioned above?...i.e. Leviathan similar to two warhounds, colossus similar to a reaver, and the Land Train similar to a Warlord. While the Cyclops falling between a reaver and a warlord. Both in firepower and in protection on all of these WE?

Hi RZ, I never played Squats back in 2nd ed - it's always interesting to hear the history.
I think the biggest issue with having more powerful WEs for the Squats would be pricing them. A 800pt WE in a 3000pt game is such a suck on activation count that it's rarely seen. Even 600pt WE are pretty rare in the games my group plays (though I love my Gargant... :) )
Secondly, if the Squat WE were priced over 500 points, you'd only be able to take one. Since they are such a strong part of the list, I think most players would prefer the chance to take 2 slightly weaker WE's rather than one stronger one.


I can totally understand wanting to field more war engines. But having them cost less points by toning down their firepower isn't really the answer to that problem because it creates even more problems. One of those being spamming those low cost war engines to a rediculous point in higher point games.

I know people play 3000 points in tournaments but honestly, Epic was never really designed with such a low point level in mind. It has always been more about playing massive games with many models per side.

I do understand people do want to play tournaments though and at such high points you would never really be able to finish one in a decent amount of time. So how then, do you balance the two problems?

My answer would be increase the points to 4500, start the tournament earlier in the day, and time the turns.

This lets you play the more expensive models, yet keep the games fast because those points aren't spent on tons of tiny models that you spend many minutes moving, and also keeps you thinking fast about what you are going to do because of the limited amount of time you have to do it in.


If you are new to Epic Armageddon you'll find something out after a couple of dozen games : War Engines bigger than a Reaver generally are not worth it. They can be fun, but this game revolves around flexible maneuvering, blast markers and seizing objectives. Once you go to warlord size you find that your big machine is 1)easily avoided 2) can only really shoot a single formation per turn and 3) you don't have much else of an army.

We could make the Squat war engines 'bigger' but they would we less interesting and useful. I think the size they are at is a nice level for the Squat gameplay.

That being said, there is nothing stopping you from having 4500 point battles! The game is noticeably different at that level and quite fun! You can even start bring Emperor titans and Mega-Gargants.


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:06 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Interesting ideas, I'll enjoy trying them out.

I think that your later post mentioning Thundrfires is going to be the main discussion.

Main changes I'm fine with.

From my point of view I would still go with a land train of Cab plus dragon and berserker as my variant of choice.


I think that the AA discussion will take the most work!

A engine+Dragon+Bezerekr will give you 4 DC, 2 Void Shields with Doomsday cannon, 2 battlecannons and a decent CC/FF effect. Worth 350 points.

Does that seem right? It's almost twice as much as a 200 point Shadowsword. It's pretty much a leviathan if you packed the firing platform with FF worthy troops. To me it 'feels' about right with +/- 25 points


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:24 am 
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Hmm, ok, good to know. Don't get me wrong, I do like what you've done with the War Engines, I just thought they needed to be more in line with the titans. But since anything bigger than a reaver is a waste, I guess I'll just sit back and see what comes of these War engines. This is really fascinating to watch the threads and all of the points and counter points. But I'll probably just be mostly quiet now.

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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:03 am 
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Hmm, ok, good to know. Don't get me wrong, I do like what you've done with the War Engines, I just thought they needed to be more in line with the titans. But since anything bigger than a reaver is a waste, I guess I'll just sit back and see what comes of these War engines. This is really fascinating to watch the threads and all of the points and counter points. But I'll probably just be mostly quiet now.


But they are already Titans!

In EpicA, all 'Big Things' - Titans, Gargants, Baneblades, Land Trains are classified as 'Super Heavy Vehicles' and share similar rules - multiple hit points, a critical effect, ability to barge smaller units around etc.

The with multiple DC's and true imperial Void Shields, Squat War Engines are about as close to being Reaver Titans without actually being Reaver Titans. In fact, using the AdMech Custom Titan rules you can build a reaver into a very close approximation of a Collossus/Cyclops/Land Train as I detailed in the Lets Talk War Engines thread

But keep posting! Everyone here was new to EA at one point, it's a relatively simple ruleset with a lot of hidden complexity


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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:41 am 
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The Dragon car looks a bit powerful now, I'd probably cut down to one extra ff with ignore cover and maybe, maybe push to 100 points. The trouble with giving this extra attacks is it does somewhat invalidate the Bezerker car. 75 pts for 2 macro ff + 4 AP shots or 50 for the Bezerker is a no-brainer.

Bezerkers, I'd either push to 75 or make it every 2nd bezerker car gives +1 CC.

Not sure why the siege mortar is 2bp? That means you can take 3 for a 9bp macro shot at 575 points? Maybe just restrict to 1bp?

Rad bomb looks interesting. Though Slow to Fire could be countered by taking 2. Though that's 450 points and you can buy a Cyclops for that so...

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 Post subject: Re: New War Engine Rules - For Playtest, Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:09 am 
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+22 Ff MW attacks is pretty powerfull considering uou also get 1DC and 1 Void shield more. I would lower it to +1 attack and keep the points value as it is.

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