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[EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2

 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:11 am 
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Daemon Hordes: (1 per coven)

All Daemons in a Daemon Horde gain Teleport

Tzeentch: 9 Horrors and a Herald (char with 1 EA and Leader) for 300. 0-1 Lord of change for +150.
Khorne: 8 Bloodletters and a Herald for 275. 0-1 Bloodthirster for +150
Slaanesh: 6 Daemonettes and a Herald for 225. 0-1 Keeper of Secrets for +150
Nurgle: 7 Plaguebearers and a Herald for 250. 0-1 GUO for +150.

Fluffy and cool. Adds much needed long range punch to the army, now that all artillery (pretty much) is gone out the window.

If teleport does not work out, planetfalling gates could be tried out. Alternatively, GDs could be removed from the option.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:35 am 
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Indeed. Why all the hostility? You mad bro?

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:30 am 
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I would just like to point out that the official LatD is not switched to experimental. If I recall things correctly, this is a spinoff to be able to field more daemon engines, which part of the community asked for.

If I am wrong, please tell me, but I think some of the heated discussion concerning this list is due to a different view on the list.

Having sorted that out, I would certainly address the possibility of WE spam. A simple 1/3 cap would probably do well to begin with.

I would also look into the possiblity of adding Rough Rider and Sentinel equivalents (Blight Drones, Pleasure Seekers etc)

Khorne: Juggernauts or Brass Scorpions
Nurgle: Blight Drones
Slaanesh: Pleasure Seekers
Tzeentch: Disc Riders

If you wanted, you could also look into the former experimental daemons: Flesh Hounds, Horrors, Nurglings, those Slaanesh spawns I do not remember the name of.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 am 
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fredmans wrote:
I would also look into the possiblity of adding Rough Rider and Sentinel equivalents (Blight Drones, Pleasure Seekers etc)

Khorne: Juggernauts or Brass Scorpions
Nurgle: Blight Drones
Slaanesh: Pleasure Seekers
Tzeentch: Disc Riders

If you wanted, you could also look into the former experimental daemons: Flesh Hounds, Horrors, Nurglings, those Slaanesh spawns I do not remember the name of.

/Fredmans


Most of these already have stats / formations in the Daemon World list.

Oh and thanks for the hat tip LordotMilk...

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:26 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Latd daemon engines are 2+ initiative and 2+ strategy which makes a huge difference,


I was suggesting 2+ initiative on Black legion Daemon engines.

Steve54 wrote:
they are backed up by very poor infantry not marines,


Thats all integrated in point costs. Besides, Big mutants are hardly "poor" infantry.

Steve54 wrote:
to have 8 you would have no AA, no transport, no upgrades and 8 BTS formations - even 6 would severely limit you.


All these limitations could be brought up for the 3 Decimator + DW/Feral combo. And yes, buying a lot of good stuff, means you are going to have less of the other good stuff. Sounds about right.

Steve54 wrote:
Finally none of the daemon engines are as good as ferals, death wheels or decimators they are either slow, purely CC units or flyers. Tge exception being the questor which is great vs infantry in the open but sub-feral or DW otherwise


Questors are devastating in my experience. Advance in position at 40 cm of an enemy infantry formation (in cover or not), shoot benefitting from the range extension of the battlecannons, next turn sustain kills even huge ork formations. The effet is similar on AVs simply because they lack cover. Their assault capability is awesome too, with 3+ FF and 2 shields. To have to face 6 + 4 covens + other support units in a 3k army is a daunting prospect.

Perhaps this is a Questor issue, though, and it should be looked at.

I however disagree with your statement that the Questor is the only DE that might be too powerful. Lord of Battles is definitely high on the danger list, not to mention the Hellfire cannons.

Some others are clearly underpowered, the Plague Tower, the Firelord being the most obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I am suggesting a reexamination of all daemon engines (ability and point costs), not wholly throwing away the possibility of having 2 daemon engine formations per coven. I am also suggesting an alternative, which is the addition of daemon hordes to the list instead of popcorning daemon engines.

For example, I think the idea of Capt piett of making the Slaanesh Knight 2 DC War engines absolutely excellent. They are clearly underpriced in the current EC list, but at 100 apiece I believe they would be a great improvement over their currently weird incarnation, whereby they have too much firepower and too little resilience for a unit at that price. The increase in price for the Questor in that list is also a good idea, though I would prefer a review of its stats.

If development on the other chaos lists was actually going anywhere, we might also find good ideas for Daemon engine evolution. For example, Frogbear had mentioned that the current Khorne engines were unsatisfying for different reasons.


Chaos marines are clearly better than any infantry Latd can field, BL could field 6 fearless init 1 strat 4 WEs which was overpowered and not fun to play against, with other needs (scouts/SC/AA/speed) all covered. Everywhere except Switzerland.

Questors - if an opponent allows a Questor to move up and then sustain the next turn he clearly needs more practice. Even IF somehow incompetence/luck allowed it to happen I cannot see how it would wipe out a uge Ork infantry formation in cover - which infantry should be. If you allow them to do exactly what they want to do they are very good but that is very rare and very difficult to do - much like Vultures, Terminators, Deathstrikes, etc, etc


LoB - good stats on paper, in game very difficult to use as its vulnerable against shooty armies and only excels at CC which is difficult to get into with a strat 2 army

Hellfire - similar to LoB, looks awesome but can easily be mitigated by objective placement and vulnerable to WEs

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:31 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Point taken. I also note that only members of the EUK crew are responding, and all support each other in this topic (and in many others). Do only English people play Chaos?

As it is, this evolution is completely uninspired and suffers from a complete lack of creativity. There is just nothing to it. If you are going to go through the trouble of bringing a list down from Approved down to experimental, one would hope that you actually would do something with it. (A Technical, seriously?)

Now as we are in an Experimental list, development is open, and all the famous maxims of "no change unless broken" yada yada do not apply. Therefore I am suggesting to actually put balls behind the choice of bringing down the approved list and redesign the daemon engines. No amount of testing will tell us that alternative stats would be better than the current ones, unless we actually come up with alternative stats.

How about my suggestion for daemon hordes? No amount of testing will replace a development decision to try them out or not.

If EUK wants another tasteless list, I honestly would rather they develop it in their own corner of the world and not inflict it on the whole Epic community.

None of the above is meant as personal attacks, so don't take it personally and do try to look at what you are doing with a measure of objectivity. The way it looks from over here, is that Steve and the gang are yet again wreaking havoc for obscure reasons.

If you want to start getting offensive we can all play

Dptdexys have their own opinions and are certainly not part of a united EUK position, to suggest that is idiotic and paranoid. Last time I checked anybody could post on this forum.

LatD list is remaining Approved, Mike has kindly volunteered to look at different directions for the list. If this goes well they can replace or be added to the existing list, if not then no problem. No need to start getting rufe about EUK lists, which work for growing in popularity EUK tournaments

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:44 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Glad you got that out of the way ;) .

Now, lets start small, one God at a time:

What about Capt Piett stats for the Slaanesh daemon Knights?

How about even going further and doing something like this:

Daemon Knights (3 for 300)
Move 30 cm, Armour 4+, CC 5+, FF 4+
0-1 Castigator Cannon 30 cm 3xAP3+/AT5+
0-1 Thermal Lance 30 cm MW4+
DC 2, Fearless, Invulnerable save, Scout. Must choose one weapon or the other.


Questor (2 for 450)
Move 35 cm, Armour 5+, CC 5+, FF 3+
2x Castigator cannons 30 cm 3x AP3+/AT5+
2x Tormentor cannon 45 cm 2x AP4+/AT4+
DC 3, Fearless, Invulnerable save, reinforced armour.

Subjugator (2 for 450)
Move 35 cm, Armour 5+, CC 3+, FF 4+
2x Hellblades, MW, TK (D3), EA (+1)
2x Tormentor cannon 45 cm 2x AP4+/AT4+
DC 3, Fearless, Invulnerable save, reinforced armour


Try those and try the old stats and see what you prefer both as opponent and as player.

edit: Explanations:

- For reference, Slaanesh Titans have never had void shields except in the current Latd EA list, neither in Netepic and its past incarnations where it orginated, nor in Apocalypse version of 40k.

- Daemon Knights are currently overgunned and overvulnerable. They are always prime targets because of the danger they represent, have very little survivability or BM resilience, which makes them a poor choice for an army, excpet if you go all out and field multiple formations. The proposed stats give them much resilience, while reducing their ability, making them excellent close support fire units, hard to break (relatively) a pain due to their scout ability.

- The Questor is currently both an assault monster and a shooting nightmare, including at long range. It is however in the fluff depicted as a close fire support unit. The proposed changes reduce its assault ability and resilience (no shields), reduce its range (close support), which should make him fulfill his battlefield role more appropriately. He is very minimally upgunned (at shorter range) and its point cost is reduced to balance. Finally, the option to take singles is removed in the context of a LatD list that allows two support options per coven, so as to limit potential abuse.

- The Subjugator is currently a an all-round poor option that has as only favourable feature its very low cost. In the fluff it is supposed to be an assault monster. Increasing its firepower and firefight ability makes it more versatile, and replacing its void shields (which are useless in CC) with invulnerable save should help it in cc against other war machines. Given its increased ability, it can now be priced at the same level as the Questor.


Questor - all you've done is remove shields and reduce range. I've never seen it dominate as a FF unit due to its strategy rating and support formations. Even in EC for it to be good in FF assaults it needs lots of support otherwise its still only 3 dice on 3s, can't see how that is dominating. I don't see its problem - its good at AP shooting, decent FF. Not overpowered.

Subjagator - I've seen taken more as you are getting a 225pt fast fearless WE which gets it taken even though it never gets to perform its niche of WE CC on WE. It needs no help when in CC with other WEs. Your stats make it good at everything and I can't see why you would ever not take it over the Questor.

IMO you stats make no difference to the Questors strength (AP shooting) and nerf something that wasn't a problem, the Subjagator gets help in something it already excels at (when allowed to) and made into an all-rounder.

Lack of shields is another factor, I'd suggest most armies would shoot and break them at every opportunity. That's only a feeling though as its not based on TESTING.

Knights - not seen problems with the current stats really, they are good at shooting but vulnerable (As you've said) In my experience one solves any problems with the other and they are a regular choice.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:46 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Daemon Hordes: (1 per coven)

All Daemons in a Daemon Horde gain Teleport

Tzeentch: 9 Horrors and a Herald (char with 1 EA and Leader) for 300. 0-1 Lord of change for +150.
Khorne: 8 Bloodletters and a Herald for 275. 0-1 Bloodthirster for +150
Slaanesh: 6 Daemonettes and a Herald for 225. 0-1 Keeper of Secrets for +150
Nurgle: 7 Plaguebearers and a Herald for 250. 0-1 GUO for +150.

Fluffy and cool. Adds much needed long range punch to the army, now that all artillery (pretty much) is gone out the window.

If teleport does not work out, planetfalling gates could be tried out. Alternatively, GDs could be removed from the option.

Not against this but it would be a MASSIVE boost to the army

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:23 pm 
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While I'm not going to address everything posted here I will address the following points:

1) As far as I'm aware, all Deamonic Engine stats are identical to the original the Lost And the Damned list published by games Workshop and are certainly identical to those found in the current NetEA approved list. Wanting to investigate potential stat changes is understandable and doing so in an experimental list is sensible, but they've been the same stats for 10 years and have never seemed to draw any ire.

2) Usage cases presented my lordofmilk always seem unbelievable as they combine statements of overpowered performance with no actual statistical or experience based evidence and seem to run counter to actual in game experiences.

For instance,

LordotMilk wrote:
Questors are devastating in my experience. Advance in position at 40 cm of an enemy infantry formation (in cover or not), shoot benefitting from the range extension of the battlecannons, next turn sustain kills even huge ork formations. The effet is similar on AVs simply because they lack cover. Their assault capability is awesome too, with 3+ FF and 2 shields.


shooting on advance at a huge ork formation (assuming infantry are in cover which would be the vast majority of cases) leads to:

6 x 4+ castegator shots (3 hits average) and 2 x 5+ Battlecannon shots (1 hit average)

4 hits (being generous with the battlecannon shooting. Huge mobs have 6 grotz standard; most likely outcome 4 dead grotz if cover is battlewagons, 3 dead if cover is light, 2 dead if cover is heavy. One blast marker for the formation

Second turn, sustaining at previously shot 'uge mob

6 x 3+ castigator shots (4 hits average) and 2 x 4+ Battlecannon shots (1 hit average)

Assuming remaining 2 grotz are out of position to take hits, that would be 5 hits on boyz, most likely outcome 4-5 dead if cover is battlewagons, 3-4 if cover is light, 2-3 if cover is heavy.

Net result is 5 dead orks, 4 dead grotz and maybe 7 blast markers on a formation with 19 infantry and possibly 12 armoured vehicles left.

Same setup, target now a 'uge Kult of Speed: 5 hits first turn (1-2 saved) 7 hits second turn (2 saved): Net result 10 killed but unbroken.

Even leaving aside the perfect set up and outcome for the Questor (situations like this, whilst possible, are very much not the norm and so shouldn't be used for balance purposes) lordofmilk's vague assertions that Questors will kill even huge ork formations sound wrong from experience and are provably hyperbole at best.

3) The initial remit for this list was removal of all traitor guard units in favor of relaxation of restriction on Daemonic Engine formations. this list accomplishes that and should be tested as is first before identifying any potentially under or over powered units. Again, these stats are the same as the initial Lost and the Damned list which is a decade old.

4) DC2 Slaaneshi Knights as a specific case: Whilst I do think Knights of all stripes are large enough to probably warrant being a DC2 War engine, the stats as proposed are drastically undercosted; they cost the same as a Land raider yet are substantially faster, almost twice as resilient, massively better in assault, fearless, walkers and with equivalent or slightly worse shooting. To playtest them I'd have to double their points cost and, as I said, I'd like to get quite a few games with the list as-is first.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:45 am 
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novemberrain wrote:

Oh and thanks for the hat tip LordotMilk...


Somewhere in the spur of the moment the hat was not tipped. I apologize. Both the formation comp of daemon hordes and the teleporting idea has come directly from your list Novemberterrain. List that I have played a couple times with much pleasure, and where teleporting daemons were actually not only fun, but surprisingly not unbalanced per se.

So, tip of the hat to Novemberterrain.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:52 am 
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MikeT wrote:

4) DC2 Slaaneshi Knights as a specific case: Whilst I do think Knights of all stripes are large enough to probably warrant being a DC2 War engine, the stats as proposed are drastically undercosted; they cost the same as a Land raider yet are substantially faster, almost twice as resilient, massively better in assault, fearless, walkers and with equivalent or slightly worse shooting. To playtest them I'd have to double their points cost and, as I said, I'd like to get quite a few games with the list as-is first.


Are you referring to CaptPietts stats or the above proposed stats for Knights?

Concerning Questor strength, I don't think I need to insist more, as I have already stated my case (coming from experience mind you). Obviously 8 shots x2 cannot kill 30 units. But multiple Questors have multiple times that firepower.

Also, perhaps you have found that in experience Ork players like to get their grots shot down by shooting attacks, however we find that Grots are best kept alive for usage in assaults, and therefore orks bear the brunt of shooting attacks.

Finally, I don't see why you would state that my posts are not substantiated by experience. At best, your experience is different.

My biggest issues with Slaanesh Titans is that their shields and range of battlecannons are an oddity (fluffwise and battlefield role wise), their price is too low and they shouldnt be taken as singles.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am glad someone is tackling this list. I am just hoping that something a bit more flavourful than just a rinced down list comes out of of the process.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:39 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:
MikeT wrote:

4) DC2 Slaaneshi Knights as a specific case: Whilst I do think Knights of all stripes are large enough to probably warrant being a DC2 War engine, the stats as proposed are drastically undercosted; they cost the same as a Land raider yet are substantially faster, almost twice as resilient, massively better in assault, fearless, walkers and with equivalent or slightly worse shooting. To playtest them I'd have to double their points cost and, as I said, I'd like to get quite a few games with the list as-is first.


Are you referring to CaptPietts stats or the above proposed stats for Knights?

Concerning Questor strength, I don't think I need to insist more, as I have already stated my case (coming from experience mind you). Obviously 8 shots x2 cannot kill 30 units. But multiple Questors have multiple times that firepower.

Also, perhaps you have found that in experience Ork players like to get their grots shot down by shooting attacks, however we find that Grots are best kept alive for usage in assaults, and therefore orks bear the brunt of shooting attacks.

Finally, I don't see why you would state that my posts are not substantiated by experience. At best, your experience is different.

My biggest issues with Slaanesh Titans is that their shields and range of battlecannons are an oddity (fluffwise and battlefield role wise), their price is too low and they shouldnt be taken as singles.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am glad someone is tackling this list. I am just hoping that something a bit more flavourful than just a rinced down list comes out of of the process.

That's how it appears when the opinions presented are nonsensical eg. a questor sustaining and destroying a uge Ork formation. You clearly stated this as an example to show they are overpowered and are now backtracking when called out on it. Multiple questers sustaining on a uge ork formation now :{[]
So 550+ plus points sustaining on the formation 1) why would the ork player ever let that happen 2) why is it problematic if 2 formations doing exactly what they are best at kills a formation of similar cost?

I've never seen battlecannons have a great effect other than the odd 1st turn long-range shot

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:14 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:

Concerning Questor strength, I don't think I need to insist more, as I have already stated my case (coming from experience mind you). Obviously 8 shots x2 cannot kill 30 units. But multiple Questors have multiple times that firepower.


With your concerns about the firepower of Questors why do you suggest giving each one 2 extra shots at 50 points cheaper cost. I know your recommending dropping shields and weapon range but with the speed of the Titan range won't be a problem, shields will.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:56 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Concerning Questor strength, I don't think I need to insist more, as I have already stated my case (coming from experience mind you). Obviously 8 shots x2 cannot kill 30 units. But multiple Questors have multiple times that firepower.


Finally, I don't see why you would state that my posts are not substantiated by experience. At best, your experience is different.


As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am glad someone is tackling this list. I am just hoping that something a bit more flavourful than just a rinced down list comes out of of the process.


I'm going to reply to LoM again, but am concious this risks being perceived as turning into some kind of group hazing. It's not.

Yes, you really do need to insist more; you haven't provided any concrete experiences to back up your concerns and the analysis (kill a huge mob) is provably false. this is in no way the level of evidence we should be working to. If you have concrete examples, present them here with as much ancillary evidence as possible (full batreps are really needed to judge a formations potential effects) rather than vague assertions.

Regarding the Daemon formations; I really like that idea but I worry what it would do to this list. At the very least, the Daemon Engine formations would once again have to be limited to one per core formation which seems silly as the stated goal of the list is to allow for more use for said formations.


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