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Is it possible to win with Orks?!! (Rules continuation)

 Post subject: Is it possible to win with Orks?!! (Rules continuation)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:07 am 
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CS Edit - This thread has been split from the one with the same name;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26164




I had not actually looked for the specific rule in NetEpic up to this point, as I had assumed that it would be there. I am not able to find it in the NetEpic Gold Core Rules PDF at the moment, and I don't know if it's an oversight or an intentional omission. Primarch will have to weigh in on that issue.

The rule I was referring to is in the Titan Legions Core Rules book for SM2, page 32, paragraph 5:
"When models move into close combat they must take the shortest possible route to reach their intended victim. Hence it is possible to charge an opponent in the side or rear, but only if the charging model was behind or to one side of the target model at the start of their move."

Nearly all miniatures-based games that I've played have some version of that rule, as doing otherwise is just unfair. Note that the rule does not require "straight line" movement as I didn't actually say, but that the shortest (thus straightest) route must be taken. Also, this only applies when moving so as to enter close combat. Other instances of movement are not so restricted.

The closest I can find to that specific rule is on page 19, 3) Enemy Response: 2) Firing on a charging unit.
"If an enemy charges straight at you, you have time to get off one last, desperate shot. If a unit is on First Fire Orders and is the target of a charge, it may be activated to Snap Fire at the charging unit without the normal –1 To-Hit penalty. Template weapons with no range, like Flamethrowers, may be used as well to fire at a charging unit."
While this doesn't allow for enemies not directly charging, it implies that it can happen. This, coupled with the lack of the above rule from SM2, does strongly imply that NetEpic allows non-shortest route charging. This seems like a bad thing to me. I'd really like to hear from Primarch (or whoever knows from when NetEpic was being written) whether this was an intentional change or an unintended omission.

With peoples' comments, and re-reading the post, it is now apparent that he was not talking about entering close combat at all. In that case, the action was completely legal and good tactics, if but a bit dishonorable. Not that I can see any reason that Eldar would give Orks (or the other way around) any consideration for Honor, but that's getting into fluff.

While my comment was not intended to be condescending or patronizing, I can see how it could be taken as such, and apologize if it was. I see that I need to clarify my position. While I understand *that* you do not like fluff, I do not understand how a person *can* not like fluff. To me, the fluff is so important to the setting so as to be indispensable. As I've said elsewhere, and another somewhat said here, Orks are so fluff heavy as to be unplayable if you are not familiar with and pay attention to the fluff. Again, this is just My Opinion. I'm not trying to say that you are not allowed to play as Orks if you don't read the fluff. I'm just saying that I don't see how you would be able to.

As a note, I did not see your comment as patronizing at all. You were just explaining your position, and quite effectively at that.

Not everything is based off Tolkien, nor are his entirely original works either. Everything in his can be traced to earlier legends, traditions, superstitions, etc. Just because a person knows his works, doesn't necessarily mean they know everything either. Even if the generalities are along those lines, the details differ, and it's the details that matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:31 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I had not actually looked for the specific rule in NetEpic up to this point, as I had assumed that it would be there. I am not able to find it in the NetEpic Gold Core Rules PDF at the moment, and I don't know if it's an oversight or an intentional omission. Primarch will have to weigh in on that issue.

The rule I was referring to is in the Titan Legions Core Rules book for SM2, page 32, paragraph 5:
"When models move into close combat they must take the shortest possible route to reach their intended victim. Hence it is possible to charge an opponent in the side or rear, but only if the charging model was behind or to one side of the target model at the start of their move."

Nearly all miniatures-based games that I've played have some version of that rule, as doing otherwise is just unfair. Note that the rule does not require "straight line" movement as I didn't actually say, but that the shortest (thus straightest) route must be taken. Also, this only applies when moving so as to enter close combat. Other instances of movement are not so restricted.


I would have expected something like the rule above to appear as it makes sense and that is how I tend to play anyway as it avoids shenanigans, but for some reason it isn't included.
Guess it is something to add to the update.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:46 am 
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Hi!

The "charging in a straight line" or "taking the shortest route to engage in CC" was eliminated due to the reasons mentioned by Scream.

Charge lets you do two things, move faster and engage in close combat. It is not an order bereft of maneuver. Therefore people can maneuver into close combat as they see fit.

The opinions on this have been pretty decisive in favor of "freefrom" charging into close combat.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:23 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

The "charging in a straight line" or "taking the shortest route to engage in CC" was eliminated due to the reasons mentioned by Scream.

Charge lets you do two things, move faster and engage in close combat. It is not an order bereft of maneuver. Therefore people can maneuver into close combat as they see fit.

The opinions on this have been pretty decisive in favor of "freefrom" charging into close combat.

Primarch


There is freeform charging to allow units to manoeuvre to get into combat and then there is bending the rules for a distinct advantage. If someone pulled that Warhound trick with me I would tell them to GTFO.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:39 am 
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Thanks Magnus, I appreciate that. In turn, I apologise if I over-reacted in any way.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye about the fluff, but that's fine, I think it is ok for fans of Epic to like different aspects of the game/hobby. Let's just agree to disagree! :)

The close combat argument is an interesting one in so far as I'm surprised that there is a split in opinion. I completely assumed that everyone would play it the way Mattman & I did, which is to say most direct route into CC.

I reckon it boils down to whether you think in a real life situation troops would have the tactical nous to encircle a tank to engage it in "close combat" in the vehicle's blind spot or if they would go mental and engage it head-on.

When I say it like that, I'm beginning to come down on the side of breaking from tradition!

Back to the Orks, I took a tanking in the end. My experience of playing them has been against the Eldar which given their high mobility (and the Orks lack thereof) probably isn't the best force to try them out against. It's all a good learning experience though and it took a few heavy defeats for me to get to grips with Chaos!

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:55 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

In Net epic evolution, titans can "charge move" and fire (also using alternate plasma generation rules). So the titan can move swiftly past the enemy titan and unload from behind.

For eldar titans this is a standard tactic using the multiple alternate rules. If they don't move they don't get a holofield save and the slower they move the save is less effective. For them movement is life... or death.

Primarch


I just want to clarify that it is the Titan Plasma Generation rules that are causing this situation to arise. Evolution playtests just happen to be testing out the alternative rulesets but can be played with the standard rules where Titans which charge cannot fire at all. ;)
The alternative rules on the whole happen to be very good - I just have a few concerns about what effect the new rules of Titans being able to charge and first fire has on the game.

Mattman wrote:
There is freeform charging to allow units to manoeuvre to get into combat and then there is bending the rules for a distinct advantage. If someone pulled that Warhound trick with me I would tell them to GTFO.
Matt


I'm probably being shortsighted (I don't wear glasses for nothing!) but what is the Warhound trick you've referred to?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:12 am 
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scream wrote:
Mattman wrote:
scream wrote:
In fact, I was interested in knowing if we had to charge in a straight line directly toward enemy when engaging in CC as my close combat warhounds often turn around enemy tanks to finally engage them in their back :P


What does that accomplish though? CAF isn't affected if you fight in the front, sides or rear?

Matt


True but when you charge some Land Raiders that are on first fire, if you charge them on the back, they can not use the lascannons to fire at you due to their 180° front arc of fire... They only can try to snap fire at my warhounds at -2 before they make their bypass move ;)


This one Biss.
Scream is basically saying that he charges but doesn't engage with his warhounds so any snap firing still gets the -1 for shooting at a charging enemy (along with the extra -1 for "Hard To Hit") and then when he has gone past them he turns round and engages, all in the one move.
To me sounds cheesy as hell.
It is one thing for a unit to charge through or round a building to catch someone from behind and engage them, it is another to intentionally charge straight past someone then turn round and then decide to engage in combat.

I think it needs to be stated in the rules that the intent to engage in close combat must be made when you reveal a charge order and the unit will engage the enemy on the facing that is directly in their direction of charge.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:28 am 
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Ooft! Naughty, naughty Scream! That won't do at all! :tut

Cheers Matt, I agree completely with your assessment there.

Further to my argument above, I think it is one thing infantry trying to attack more heavily armoured vehicles from behind - that could be regarded as self preservation - but it's another completely for a Warhound to do the same! If I was driving(/piloting?) a Warhound I'd walk up to an opponent and kick its face off, not tip toe around it.

You know I'm all about compromise, so to be sensible about matters, how about a halfway house between the two viewpoints?

You must take the most direct route into close combat unless attacking a more heavily armoured opponent. If the unit you are attacking is one or more pinning classes above yours, you may take a longer route into combat to avoid incoming fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:15 pm 
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I'm sorry for having generate so much debates...

So according to the rule change proposed by blisser:

- I have a detachment of bikers that can see a detachment of heavy infantry in borders of woods, I must directly charge them, I don't have the possibility to enter in the woods with my bikes from another border and then charge heavy infantry to obtain a -1 to be hit awarded for being in woods ?

Another example:
- an enemy infantry detachment is in a large building (on a side, others sides are free of minis and there's room to enter in it).
Would it be allowed that my tactical detachment in rhinos:
- move the rhinos until building sides or rear where there are no enemy troops and then disembark my tactical marines in charge order and make them enter in the building to charge troops inside instead of charging them from the outside ?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:33 pm 
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No probs Scream, I like these little debates. My suggestion is merely that and far from being canon. But in answer to your hypothetical questions:

scream wrote:
I have a detachment of bikers that can see a detachment of heavy infantry in borders of woods, I must directly charge them, I don't have the possibility to enter in the woods with my bikes from another border and then charge heavy infantry to obtain a -1 to be hit awarded for being in woods ?


Again, I can understand your point here, but in my defence I would pose the following question: Would bikes on charge be easily able to drive through one end of a wood to find and engage enemy infantry at the other?

scream wrote:
- an enemy infantry detachment is in a large building (on a side, others sides are free of minis and there's room to enter in it).
Would it be allowed that my tactical detachment in rhinos:
- move the rhinos until building sides or rear where there are no enemy troops and then disembark my tactical marines in charge order and make them enter in the building to charge troops inside instead of charging them from the outside ?


Absolutely. So long as the Rhinos aren't getting involved in the Close Combat melee, then they could do exactly as you said. If they are getting involved in attacking the infantry on the edge of the building, then they would have to attack head-on.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

The "charging in a straight line" or "taking the shortest route to engage in CC" was eliminated due to the reasons mentioned by Scream.

Charge lets you do two things, move faster and engage in close combat. It is not an order bereft of maneuver. Therefore people can maneuver into close combat as they see fit.

The opinions on this have been pretty decisive in favor of "freefrom" charging into close combat.

Primarch


There is freeform charging to allow units to manoeuvre to get into combat and then there is bending the rules for a distinct advantage. If someone pulled that Warhound trick with me I would tell them to GTFO.

Matt


Hi!

True, but we can't make rules to enforce "civility" during games. No matter how you phrase this particular rule, someone is going to find a loophole. So we stopped trying and let people sort it themselves.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:39 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Ooft! Naughty, naughty Scream! That won't do at all! :tut

Cheers Matt, I agree completely with your assessment there.

Further to my argument above, I think it is one thing infantry trying to attack more heavily armoured vehicles from behind - that could be regarded as self preservation - but it's another completely for a Warhound to do the same! If I was driving(/piloting?) a Warhound I'd walk up to an opponent and kick its face off, not tip toe around it.

You know I'm all about compromise, so to be sensible about matters, how about a halfway house between the two viewpoints?

You must take the most direct route into close combat unless attacking a more heavily armoured opponent. If the unit you are attacking is one or more pinning classes above yours, you may take a longer route into combat to avoid incoming fire.


Hi!

I'm going to let you guys sort this one out, since I have been through this particular debate more times than I care to remember. ;)

Of course, at least in the past, the result has been the same. As in not much change. ;D

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:08 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Of course, at least in the past, the result has been the same. As in not much change. ;D
Primarch


Well apart from an actual change from the rules as given in SM2/TL :P


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Well, given that Primarch has counted himself out of the cc festivities, what does everyone else think about my redefinition? Or does have anyone have a better solution? Or stick with what we've got? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:29 pm 
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As much as I'm all for giving people options, any game that I'm involved in / in charge of will be using the "shortest route" requirement. That said, I'm not going to try to force everyone to play my way. If both participants want to play a certain way, that's between them.

Actually, I am going to make a formal proposal about this. It seems to me that the rules need to specifically state that the baseline NetEpic rules allow 'freeform' charging, rather than leaving it to implication. Additionally, there needs to be an 'Optional Rule' box stating that if either/both players prefer, charging so as to enter Close Combat must be restricted to 'shortest path' movement only.

As several people here have stated that they do play that way (by my count, at least three, myself included), there is obviously preference for this method among some players. Let's give people options.

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