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[Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown

 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:40 am 
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There's featured, and there's over-padded. The line has been crossed here IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:55 am 
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The wording is fine and the amount of rules is almost fine.
After all we aren't dealing with 12-16 year old teenagers (Wh40ks target audience) but with us.

I think synapseless Synapse Swarms should only be able to contest objectives but they can`t hold/capture them.
Also a -1 to rally while being broken instead of the -2 for Synapse-led Synapse Swarms feels better.

Also it's animalistic not anomalistic. Or was this deliberate? :D

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:02 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
After all we aren't dealing with 12-16 year old teenagers (Wh40ks target audience) but with us.


16 year olds are in fact much better at dealing with complex rules than we are.

(Complex strategies are a different matter.)¨

edit: Isn't this basically a question of swarming or not? Without swarming there is Mobility (a rule that decreases complexity, as it works better than army-wide walker), Regeneration (simplest Titan defense yet), expendable (which is half the grot rule) and Hive Mind as a list/GT scenario rule, with Synapse as an "empty" keyword for the Hive Mind rule.

This is more basic than the Ork army.


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:58 pm 
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I look at the list as having 6 special rules.

Brood and Synapse don't really do anything, they're part of Swarming. We could get rid of them but I'm trying to avoid someone seeing Brood or Synapse in the datasheets and then not being able to find them because they didn't look under Swarming. Like I said, they're there for clarity.

Augmented Swarming could be written in to Swarming as well, but I'd still feel the need to have a "rule" for it for the same reasons as Brood and Synapse. People are going to see "Augmented Swarming" and think "What's that?" Better to have it standing there in bold writing then hiding in Swarming.

So:
  • Expendable
  • Tunneler (a stretch given it's in the rulebook)
  • Swarming
  • Mobility
  • Regeneration
  • The Hive Mind

That's hardly breaking new ground. The Eldar have been culled to six as well (Farsight, Hit and Run, Holofield, Lance, Webway Portal and May Not Garrison) and the Necron are currently sitting at seven (Necron, Tomb Complex, Portals, Living Metal, Implacable Advance, Phase Out and Reserves/Garrison).

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Dave wrote:
  • Expendable
  • Tunneler (a stretch given it's in the rulebook)
  • Swarming
  • Mobility
  • Regeneration
  • The Hive Mind

Plus after the NetEA Book thingy is done "Expendable" and "Tunneler" should/could be taken out and just listed under the USR section. Making it only 4 Army Special Rules.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Rather than looking at the number of special rules, can a nid player turn up with his army and explain all the special rules to somebody with limited or no knowledge of the list in 5 minutes? Can he do this without the opposition player deciding the list is over-complex etc?

What is the justification for ignoring the -2 to rallying for being broken? there has been pretty solid opposition to adding this to other lists and I can't see an overriding reason that the nid list needs it when there are plenty of other special rules+details that are needed. Especially as it alters the basic rules of the game

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Last edited by Steve54 on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:52 pm 
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I'm a little concerned that a few of these rules were dropped in without public discussion, namely the "no -2 when broken" and Absorbing. Surely people should be allowed their say on these?

It just strikes me as odd given how open the discussions have been for every other special rule.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:57 pm 
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I have explained more complicated 'nid rules to my opponent in under five minutes. Most of my group gets a breakdown before the game and they go fairly quick. As to deciding if the rules are overly complicated or not I can't really say. If any of my regular opponents are reading this I'll leave them to comment.

On the ignoring the -2 to rally for being broken mod, I did this for a couple of reasons.

The first was to avoid a flat +X rally bonus as it would make rallying unbroken 'nids within 30cm automatic. Given that this range (engagement range) is where Synapse Swarm formations are at their most dangerous I'd think an automatic rally would be too good. I'd rather there be some chance for a formation to fail to rally within engagement range to represent the stronger push against the Hive Mind as the proximity to the enemy makes the brood creatures harder to control.

The second was to represent the control of the Synapse creature over the swarm. While the synapse creatures are present the brood will throw themselves at the enemy with no regard for self-preservation. IG are going to hard to rally after they've seen half their buddies taken down, Tyranid brood creatures under the control of the hive mind don't care. They don't think, they're compelled by the hive mind to do its bidding.

A third minor point is the math is easier. You simply don't apply a modifier, rather than apply a modifier and then apply a 'nid rally modifier.

I'll also add that ignoring the -2 to rally has been in Onachus from the start. I've had over 35 games with it and the record is nearly 50/50. Some of those games also had the whole army ignoring the -2 to rally when broken, rather than just the Synapse Swarms with synapse creatures.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Absorbing especially has been pretty disliked in the past I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:07 pm 
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The merging swarm poll that Neal ran was the only one that showed a clear majority:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20182

That's what I was going by.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:26 pm 
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To be fair, that poll is pretty out of date. Since then we've had Jaldon's special rules and EpicUK's list without absorbing, and a poll showing a plurality in favour of dropping spawning. I'm pretty certain public opinion would be very different if such a poll was conducted now.

At minimum there should be a thread opened on the matter, and on the "no -2".

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Isn't this list in the stage below approved? So more debate is inevitable. It's a starting point I thought?


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Dave wrote:
The second was to represent the control of the Synapse creature over the swarm. While the synapse creatures are present the brood will throw themselves at the enemy with no regard for self-preservation. IG are going to hard to rally after they've seen half their buddies taken down, Tyranid brood creatures under the control of the hive mind don't care. They don't think, they're compelled by the hive mind to do its bidding.

There's recurring theme to the 40k universe about who's toughest, strongest, most fearless, etc. I don't think any race is as unconcerned about their deaths as the Necrons and they don't get a bonus to rally just a very low initiative of 1+. The Hive Mind might be all-controlling but it still might decide that discretion is the better part of valour and prefer to withdraw from a certain part of the battlefield. Overall I don't like this rule, as a sneaky synapse creature even by itself can sneak into an important part of the battlefield when double-moving off breaking (fearless) knowing they will auto-rally. Auto-rally (or almost that at 2+ at worse) from broken sucks as it's too easy to predict. It also opens up really aggressive breaking double moves to enforce the -1 on less brave broken enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Isn't this list in the stage below approved? So more debate is inevitable. It's a starting point I thought?


Yes, it's just weird that a few things weren't given the chance for public discussion when so much else was.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:08 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
Isn't this basically a question of swarming or not?
I'd be inclined to agree, I think the rest of the rules contribute something thematically and functionally whilst still being simple changes that everyone will quickly understand. Even if there is debate about whether they are needed. The swarming rules on the other hand frankly ruin the harmony.

(By the way in my breakdown of rules effects I didn't mean to change the meaning of the rally rule, it was just shorthand.)

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