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[Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG & H

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG & H
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Some units for the "new list". These guys will all have brood (I believe) and be able to be spawned back.

Tyrant Guard

No special movement abilities in 40k here so 15cm works.

On armor, they are comparable to a Hive Tyrant in 40k but with half as many wounds, I think 5+RA is good here. Whether or not they should be AVs or LVs is questionable. Given their wounds again I think LVs.

Comparing these guys to 40k Attack Bikes they have better WS, S and have one more attack. All that I think is worth two bumps of the EA attack bike stat to a 3+.

They're not armed with any shooting attacks so no FF or weapons.

For special rules, Zombo has them as Expendable and Fearless with no Brood. Not sure on why the lack of Brood. Are they that rare in the fluff Zombo? Or is it for gameplay reasons (spawning back your Tyrant shield made it too hard to kill him)? I'm on the fence for expendable. They're directly controlled by the Tyrant so one dieing might give him a bit of a headache. Thoughts here? For Fearless, I think that's a decent abstraction of their "Blind Rage" special rule from 40k.

Hive Guard

Arkturas has these guys as INF but given that similar creatures are being class as LV I'm wondering what people's thoughts are here. I'd prefer LV but that's only a preference. If you have modeled these please chime in, that's a good of a reason as any to keep them as INF.

No special movement abilities in 40k here so 15cm works.

For armor, they're close to a Tyrant Guard but with a worse save in 40k. They're better than a Lictor/Biovore in T though. Give that I'd think 4+ would work if they were LV. As Inf Ark has them at 5+RA and I think that or 4+RA would work. Thoughts here?

On CC, they have more attacks and better WS, S and more attacks then a Biovore/Zoanthrope in 40k, I think 5+ would be decent enough for an LV. As Inf Ark has them at CC6+ which I think is a bit too low, I'd but them at CC4+ (on par with Tacticals). Again, thoughts?

On shooting, they're armed with an impaler cannon (24" S8 assault 2) in 40k. 24" weapons usually correspond to 15cm range in EA but given that they're assault weapons I think 30cm could work too. Two S8 shots is good enough for an AT5+ I think, and is also pretty close to an autocannon in AP value, so AP5+ would work. So for LVs I think we'd be looking at a 15/30cm AP5+/AT5+ weapon. Assuming three on a stand for INF I think it be more of a 2x AP4+/AT4+ (which is what Ark has them at).

For FF, if they're LVs I think a FF5+ would work well enough. For INF though I'd say either a 2+ or a 3+ when you compare them to Devastators. Thoughts?

Harpy

For speed I think 35cm with Skimmer fits.

Zombo has these as AVs but given their 40k stats I think they're more of an LV. They have T5 and 4 wounds with a save of 4+. So there worse than Tyrant Guard in save and T but have the wounds of a Hive Tyrant. Thoughts? Either LV or AV I think 5+RA works for armor.

They're slightly better than a Zoanthrope/Biovore in close combat in 40k so I think CC5+ would be good enough.

On their shooting, they're armed with twin Stranglethorn cannons (36" S6 large blast, pinning) which I think translates into a 30cm AP3+ Disrupt shot (what Zombo has it as) pretty well. They also have Spore Mine Cysts which grant it D3 S4 large blast shots once per game on a unit that it moved over. That's a bit harder to abstract out. Obviously Single Shot should be in there, and a range of 15cm I think would have to be as well. Zombo has them as 1BP but I don't think S4 should be good enough to warrant an AT value. I'd think 2x AP4+ would be good enough. Thoughts?

Given they have no AT value I think a FF5+ works despite their good AP shot. They also have a Sonic Screech in 40k which effectively gives them grenades and causes opponents to strike slower in 40k close combat. I think that could be abstracted out into First Strike. Zombo has them with an extra attack granting them FS in FF. I'd be more in favor of just FS on the unit so both FF and CC would be first strike (the ability affects opponents and allows the Harpy to strike first with its regular attacks, it doesn't give them extra attacks). Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG & H
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Since they are indeed new, I have no clear opinion on them. However, seeing how Tyrant Guards and Hive Guards share more or less the same "chassis", I think they should have the same unit type.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Tyrants Guard ALWAYS come with a Hive Tyrant. So if they are killed the Hive Tyrant won`t have the possibility to find new ones to command.
I would say drop Brood from Tyrant Guards. Fearless can stay. LV is needed else they can`t protect their Hive Tyrant from shooting attacks. Save should be RA4+. For an AV they are to small (only 2 Wounds). IF AV (i hope not) then save should be RA5+.

As Hive Guards are supposed to protect tyranid structures i rather would like to see them as LV. So you can use them to protect smaller AV-type Tyranid structures like Brood Nests (Synapse Nodes are WEs right? So they can`t protect them from shooting attacks).

Harpys i see as AV with a 4+ save. T5 means that S10 weapons (Demolishers) are still capable to kill one outright. Else RA5+.
Shooting would be a 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Disrupt shot. (S6 is a Multi-laser).
Spore Mine Cysts should be either 2 x AP5+ or 1 x AP4+ (S4 is a Frag-Missile). Both with Single-shot. So i tend towards 1 x AP4+ for bookkeeping reasons.
First-strike in the Notes section is the way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:18 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Shooting would be a 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Disrupt shot. (S6 is a Multi-laser).
Spore Mine Cysts should be either 2 x AP5+ or 1 x AP4+ (S4 is a Frag-Missile). Both with Single-shot. So i tend towards 1 x AP4+ for bookkeeping reasons.


A multilaser has three shots though, the stranglethorn only 1. The general pattern seems to be:

AT6: 1@S8, 2@S7, 3@S6
AT5: 1@S9, 2@S8, 3@S7, 4@S6
AT4: 1@S10, 2@S9, 3@S8, 4@S7

On the Cysts, S4 is a frag missile but the cysts have the big blast.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:38 pm 
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In my WhES the one shot is similar to 3-5 shots as the Stranglethorn cannon has a Large Blast template.

And there is no difference between Blast and Large Blast as the extra area doesn`t has any discernable effect on an Epic level. You can say that per inch diameter (Blast = 3", Large Blast = 5") you hit an average of the same number of models. Only at 6+ shots (or 7" template)a weapons gains a second shot in Epic. Same if you have more than one Blast template so you would get one shot per template.

You can use mutliple shots and half their number to increase the to-hit value by +1. For example 2 AP5+ shots would be 1 x AP4+ shot.
Generally in the WhES i do this if a whole Infantry unit is equipped with the same ranged weapon they get 2 shots at +1 to hit as the weapon normally would have and gain +15cm range (see Dark Reapers, 15cm 5 x AP6+ translates to 30cm 2 x AP5+, Firewarriors work similarly)

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Dave wrote:
BlackLegion wrote:
Shooting would be a 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Disrupt shot. (S6 is a Multi-laser).
Spore Mine Cysts should be either 2 x AP5+ or 1 x AP4+ (S4 is a Frag-Missile). Both with Single-shot. So i tend towards 1 x AP4+ for bookkeeping reasons.


A multilaser has three shots though, the stranglethorn only 1. The general pattern seems to be:

AT6: 1@S8, 2@S7, 3@S6
AT5: 1@S9, 2@S8, 3@S7, 4@S6
AT4: 1@S10, 2@S9, 3@S8, 4@S7

On the Cysts, S4 is a frag missile but the cysts have the big blast.

That would match my SPARNOOTA 40k-epic conversion formula

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:43 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
That would match my SPARNOOTA 40k-epic conversion formula


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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:48 pm 
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SPARNOOTA? :D
Dave`s table is not bad though. Only one error: S8 gives AT5+ so with Ordnance ability you get the AT4+ of the Battlecannon.
Actually in the WhES the Missile Launcher gets AP6+/AT5+ :D The only really jeopardy of existing Epic stats.

BTW: WhES = Warhammer 40.000 to Epic translation System.
At the weekend i`m back home and could send you the whole thing :D

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
That would match my SPARNOOTA 40k-epic conversion formula

Is that the formula that gave Raveners Macro Weapons? ;D ;D ;D

'Cos I want Space Marines of all flavours to have Macro Weapons. Ork Boyz too. ;D ;D ;D

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG & H
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Tyrant Guard

They need to be LV; they're way too small to be AVs, barely not much bigger than terminators and much smaller than sentinels, for example. LV makes sense in their role as a living shield too; they'll happily jump in the way of any shot type!

Expendable is essential, and makes more sense here than on any other unit. They are bred solely to die in the protection of their Tyrant, no other reason for their existence. Bodyguards are the definition of expendable.

I don't have Brood on them because it wouldn't make much sense. They're so well controlled by their Tyrants that they'd be very unlikely to wander out of synapse range, so where are the new Guards coming from? They always stick by their Tyrant, so the idea of a new one wandering up doesn't work.

Fearless is because they are brainless. They are effectively remote controlled by the Tyrant with no will of their own, more so than any other nid. They have no concept of anything, especially fear.

Hive Guard

I'm not sure these make sense on the epic battlefield. They stick to protecting static structures, so in Leviathan I just abstracted them as a weapon on my static structures, "Hive Guard Impaler Cannons". Simple and represents their role well.

Harpy

Has to be AV. It's Trygon sized, but with weaker armour, LV would make it useless.

I'd like to keep the BP on the spore, as it gives them a unique role in the list, and makes them worth taking. It makes them sort of a living valkyrie. Honestly, before I added the BP they weren't worth taking at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:06 pm 
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The Hive Guard background also indicates that if the enemy is heavily mechanised the Hive Guard are driven forward to the front lines as a counter. They are also noted to be very quick to spawn (with a long slow walk from the nearest capillary tower).
LV on Tyrant guard was an elegant rule to capture their bodyguarding ability in the context of most equivalents remaining at Inf (such as warriors). If LV is more available in alternative creatures then the Tyrant Guard need something extra, fearless and expendable may be just enough as long as alternative LVs are not spawnable.
Harpies need to be AV.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:47 pm 
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Please don't make stuff 15cm. 40k move distances are not that relevant in the context of an epic turn. And having a list w/ all the move distances in it is a bit of a mess (currently we have 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 + 20 w/ infiltrator) in terms of what can or cannot garrison, and how to coordinate the swarms on the tabletop. How bad is it really if tyrants, carnis and so on move 20 instead of 15? They're not going to assault anything in close combat anyway unless the tyranid opponent falls asleep.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Thats`s why winged versions are so popular.
And as Hive Tyrants aren`t elite shocktroops but field commanders it is allwell and good, that they don`t reach assaults that often.
Modern incarnation of the Tyranids more often than not use Carnifeci as ranged weapon platform. Tyrgons/Mawlocs, etc are the big assault-spawns now.
But iirc we already setteled on move 20cm for Hive Tyrants and Carnifeci?
If depserate we could allow Tyranids to garrision even with speed 20cm (ony in conjunction with Infiltrators i could be still forbidden).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG & H
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:52 am 
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Just want to add that I like Zombo's design principles on the Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard.

Would LV Tyrant Guard be based individually like other LVs, or do you envision them as that old "heavy infantry"-thingy where they're three to a base but still LVs?

Single-based would allow them to have crappy stats so they can be cheap and (relatively) plentiful, something like 3 per tyrant instead of one stand per tyrant.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] New Brood on the Block - HG, TG
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:59 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
But iirc we already setteled on move 20cm for Hive Tyrants and Carnifeci?


The guards are proposed in this topic as having 15cm move which doesn't work if the stuff they're guarding moves 20cm.

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