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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their like

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their like
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:49 pm 
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This is a big one, no complaining though. You guys wanted to talk stats so now we're going to talk stats. :P

I didn't want to split these up because each of the pairs share a lot of stats. All of these guys will be able to be spawned back (with the exception of the new Zoanthrope as its Synapse, not Brood).

Biovore

For the same reasons as Lictors, these guys are being classed as LVs as well. Again, not looking to debate this one.

For move, 15cm suites them. They're not overly fast or slow in either SM/TL or 40k.

Armor is another matter, they are significantly tougher in the current edition of 40k than they were in the older editions and SM/TL had them as a 4+. Given their current stats I'd say their around a 5+ in comparison to an Attack Bike. Given their older stats or even an average across all editions of 40k they'd be a 6+. Thoughts here? Remember that they will be benefiting from cover saves thanks to Mobility.

I don't see any reason why they should be anymore than a 6 in CC. They're CAF was crap in SM/TL and they have 1 attack in 40k at WS3 S4.

For their Spore Mines attack they probably shouldn't have an AT value if we're going by the 40k5e stats, an S4 barrage attack wouldn't be damaging anything but LVs and is worth an AP5+ tops. However, they did have Bio Acid mines in previous editions which I think warrant an AT6+ attack. Given what has been done with other Barrage 48” weapons I think 30cm Indirect Fire is warranted but what are people's feelings on Disrupt? There's nothing from SM/TL or any of the editions of 40k that point to it does kind of fit the fluff.

On FF. If we're going with a AP5+/AT6+ attack (Multilaser equivalent) then a FF5+ is probably right. However, a Biovore isn't as agile as a Sentinel and has a fixed weapon on its back so I think FF6+ could be abstracted as well. Thoughts?

Pyrovore

I think the stats for these guys should be tied to that of a Biovore with two exceptions:

The Flamespurt (obviously :P) which is effectively a Heavy Flamer (15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover)

And the CC could possibly be bumped to a 5+ thanks to the Acid Maw in 40k (no armor saves in CC). It still has only one attack though in 40k, same as the Biovore. Thoughts?

Also, feelings on giving its FF ignore cover as well due to the Flamespurt?

Carnifex

This is the Screamer Killer (CC variant) fex.

Speed was the only area where Zombo and I disagreed when we sent this to Jaldon. I'll let him explain his reasoning for 20cm but I'm fine with 15cm as they move the same as regular infantry in 40k and SM/TL.

For armor, we both agreed that 4+ RA was more inline with their stats in all editions of Epic and 40k. Also, with Tyrants being 4+ RA they should get it as well.

For CC they have twice as many attacks as a Dreadnought in 40k just with a WS3 instead of 4 and a S9 instead of 10. We're looking at at least a CC of 4+ with an EA+1 MW, but CC3+ (Wraithlord) wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities as well. Thoughts?

On FF, their Bio-plasma attack is pretty much an autocannon in 40k5e but at a range of 12”. Given that I think FF5+ is warranted.

Finally, they currently have Fearless. While it can be argued that they have it in 40k so do all the fan rules for the slug tanks (which don't have it in EA). What are peoples thoughts on Fearless here if we're not giving it to the slug tanks/bigger AV bugs.

Devourer Carnifex

This is what Zombo currently has as the “FF” fex. I think move, armor and special rules should be tied to the Screamer Killer but obviously CC and FF should change given its armament.

Zombo has this with two twin-linked devourers which effectively yields 12 attacks at range 18” with S6, re-rolling misses. 12 attacks at S6 is effectively four multilasers (4x AP5+/AT6+), twinning them would give you 4x AP4+/AT5+. However, I'd rather twin them again and go with two shots over four to cut down on the variance. Thoughts on 2x AP3+/AT4+?

Given the above stats, I think we're in FF3+ (what they currently have) when you compare them to a Leman Russ Demolisher or Exterminator. Thoughts here?

For CC, they don't have any Scything Claws in 40k so Zombo has them just at a flat CC4+ with no MW. Good enough or should it be CC5+?

Barbed Carnifex

The Leviathan "gun" 'fex which is armed with a Stanglethorn cannon and Heavy Venom Cannon.

The CC should be on par with the Devourer 'fex I think.

For the shots, a Heavy Venom Cannon is effectively a 36" Lascannon with a blast template in 40k. So AP4+/AT5+ at 30cm seems a good fit. On the Stranglethorn Cannon we're looking at a 36" S6 large blast/pinning weapon, so 30cm AP4+ Disrupt seems about right.

For FF, given where the other two 'fex lie I think FF4+ works.

Zoanthrope

Same as the Biovore and Lictor here, these guys are going to be LVs. This is also the first instance where we're looking to split the stats with a new/old model stat line. I'm hoping this will boil down to merely Synapse and Jump Pack on the new and Brood on the old but we'll see what people think.

For the armor, their Warp Field pretty much makes them attack bikes with an invulnerable save in 40k5e. I think 4+ with an invulnerable save fits pretty well here.

CC and move-wise they're on par with Biovores so 6+ and 15cm, respectively, are good enough.

For FF, both Zombo and I agreed that a MW here (not an EA+1 MW) was warranted from their Warp Lance attack in 40k (18” S10 Lance) but he was in favor of a FF4+ while I a FF5+. I'm aiming to keep the FF low on all units but I want to here peoples thoughts here. The attack in 40k is pretty close to a Multi-melta and given that Land Speeders only have FF5+ I think the Zoanthrope should be FF5+ as well.

On the shooting attack from the Warp Blast (24” S5 AP3 Assault 1 Blast in 40k) Zombo had it has a 30cm AP4+ and I a 15cm AP5+. My reasoning being that 24” is FF (15cm) range and those stats in 40k are closer to a Heavy Bolter or Frag Missile (AP5+) then a Battle Cannon (AP4+). Thoughts?

Venomthropes

I don't believe this guy has been stated up yet, if not let me know.

Given its appearance and stat line I think we should tie it to the new Zoanthrope (sans Synapse) for most of its stats with the following differences:

Armor 5+: while its save is worse than a biovore in 40k it does have its Spore Clouds giving it some benefits of cover so I think that can be abstracted out into a save of 5+ instead of a save of 6+. Alternatively we could give it armor 6+ and an invulnerable save for the same reasons we gave it to a Lictor. Thoughts?

No FF: It doesn't really have any range weaponry, so no FF.

CC to 5+: possibly giving it MW (no EA though) as its attacks work the same as witch blades in 40k. If no MW then maybe CC4+, thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Biovore

Armour can go either way IMHO.

30cm AP5+/AT6+ Indirect, Disrupt is about right for the weapon stats. The EpicUK list has them as 1BP, which is an interesting consideration, but probably not viable if you're insisting on them being LV.

Pyrovore

Agreed.

Scythed Carnifex

My reasoning for the 20cm movement is twofold:

Firstly, they just need it. At 15cm these guys have all the same problems as Dreadnoughts; they're awesome in CC but too slow to ever use it. I've never seen a 15cm speed 'fex make it into CC. At 20cm they at least have a fighting chance.

Secondly, it's justifiable background-wise, as in various 40k editions they've often had special rules for how quickly they charge into combat.

Note that EpicUK went with 20cm.

Fearless just makes sense; they have it in 40k, so why wouldn't they have it here? Again, without it they just suck even more.

Devourer Carnifex

Slight misconception here: The devourer carnifex is armed with TWO sets of twin-devourers, not one set and a set of scything claws, hence the lack of a MW attack. That's also why it's FF3+; it's a dedicated 15cm killing machine.

The weapon stats should have been 2xAP3+, not AP4+, that's a typo in Leviathan. I guess it could gain some AT too.

Barbed Carnifex

You missed this one off your list, it's in Leviathan. It's a 'fex armed with a Large Venom Cannon (45cm AP4+/AT5+) and a Stranglethorn Cannon (30cm AP4+ Disrupt), CC 5+, FF4+.

This gives 3 fexes with 3 unique roles (CC, FF/close ranged AP, Medium ranged shooting), which pretty much corresponds to how they're used in modern versions of 40k.

Zoanthrope

I prefer 30cm range on the Warp Blast because the closer MW attack is effectively 15cm, being a FF weapon. How exactly is another 15cm ranged weapon longer-ranged?

Agreed, stats should be the same for the old/new split apart from Jump Packs, Synapse > Brood.

Venomthropes

No real interest in adding this one to Leviathan. I believe Blacklegion knocked up some stats for it.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:24 pm 
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Biovore
As LV we talk about one model = one unit? Then 45cm AP5+ No LOS should be their shooting attack.

Pyrovore
Same as above concerning modeling. I see a unit with twi flame weapons as having Ignore Cover init`s basic FF-attack. As the Pyrovore is onlyon emodel per unit and has only one flame-thingy weapon i vote for no IC for it`s FF-atack.

Carnifex
The Fearless is interesting. IIrc Fearless now don`t affect Instinctive Behaviour rolls in Wh40k and the Carnifex has only Ld 5, correct?
With only 18" range it shoul dhave only FF EA and n o ranged attack. But the sheer volume of shots speaks against this. How about 15cm AP5+/AT6+ with +1FFEA with FF4+?

Zoanthrope

Venomthrope
Well whats the role of this unit on an Epic level? Stats are ok but in Wh40k its role is to provide the Tyranid army with some artificial cover.
Either the formation it is attached to gains cover (-1 to hit for enemy but no cover save) or it should blocvk LOS as it where a WarEngine.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Agreed that Venomthropes should make their formations count as being in cover when shot at for the hit modifier.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:37 pm 
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Add Venomthropes please. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:46 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Agreed that Venomthropes should make their formations count as being in cover when shot at for the hit modifier.


...and how many points is that going to cost...?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:48 pm 
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I just amended the Devourer breakdown and added the Barbed fex.

On the Venomthrope idea, we could them an AV. That way INF can gain the -1 concealment for being in BtB with them. An easy abstraction of what the spore clouds do in 40k. Or we could keep them an LV and give them a special rule note about them doing that despite being LVs instead.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
zombocom wrote:
Agreed that Venomthropes should make their formations count as being in cover when shot at for the hit modifier.


...and how many points is that going to cost...?


A few. Not that many, given that Mobility means most formations will be in cover most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:55 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Ulrik wrote:
zombocom wrote:
Agreed that Venomthropes should make their formations count as being in cover when shot at for the hit modifier.


...and how many points is that going to cost...?


A few. Not that many, given that Mobility means most formations will be in cover most of the time.


Ninjaed by Dave, I guess my brilliant idea was kinda obvious. The power of the formation-wide Venomthrope would be that critters wouldn't have to actually be in cover to get the benefits, which gives them a lot more flexibility when placing them (still no cover saves of course, so gaunts would still want real cover).

The argument against Dave's idea would be, what reason do you have to field Venomthropes now that the cover ability is the same as from any carnifex. I still prefer the KISS of treating them as AV for cover (using an existing mechanic), but they would need another raison d'etre wouldn't they?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:56 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Barbed Carnifex

The Leviathan "gun" 'fex which is armed with a Stanglethorn cannon and Heavy Venom Cannon.

The CC should be on par with the Devourer 'fex I think.

For the shots, a Heavy Venom Cannon is effectively a 36" Lascannon with a blast template in 40k. So AP4+/AT5+ at 30cm seems a good fit. On the Stranglethorn Cannon we're looking at a 36" S6 large blast/pinning weapon, so 30cm AP4+ Disrupt seems about right.

For FF, given where the other two 'fex lie I think FF4+ works.


The CC is deliberately lower than the Devourer 'fex for two reasons.

Firstly the extreme close range specialisation of the Devourer 'Fex means it'll probably be able to shoot into close combat or at least those attacking it up close will have a harder time avoiding its shots. The Barbed 'Fex is all ranged shooting, with arms that are awkwardly shaped for close ranged fighting.

Secondly, in order to be able to keep all three fexes at the same price point. This is pretty critical for list design purposes.

Similar reasons for FF5+; points balance and the long-ranged specialisation make it worse in FF range.

Range wise, 30cm is correct for the venom cannon, 45cm was a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
The argument against Dave's idea would be, what reason do you have to field Venomthropes now that the cover ability is the same as from any carnifex. I still prefer the KISS of treating them as AV for cover (using an existing mechanic), but they would need another raison d'etre wouldn't they?

I'd say treating them as AV's for cover purposes would be a pretty close special note.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Still makes them pretty pointless though.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:05 pm 
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To give Venomthropes a point, I'd probably forget about that "grants cover" ability and concentrate on their venomous nature.

Make their FF & CC attacks first strike, representing the venomous cloud that surrounds them affecting the enemy.

If I was to give them a special note, it'd be to say that enemies moving within 15cm of the Venomthrope take a DTT.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:30 pm 
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I think we can worry about the Venomthropes at a later date, given there's no pressing need to get them right as they're not in either of the main two lists.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Put them in Leviathan. :-)

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