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Epic UK Tier List

 Post subject: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:28 pm 
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So Dan and I had a bit of a natter this morning and thought it might be interesting to put up what we consider to be the epic UK tier list. This is based on how strong we think different races are in 3k tournament play. Obviously, this is not definitive and the categories bleed into each other a bit. The races are just grouped under each band, they’re not in any order within those bands.

A – good player running this should place
Codex Marines
Dark Angels
Death Korps
Biel Tann
Speed Freaks
Black Legion
Thousand Sons
Dark Eldar
Squats

B – good player could place
Black Templars
Steel Legion
Siege Masters
Iyanden
Ulthwe
Tau
Ghaz Orks
Feral Orks
Death Guard
Emperor’s Children
Tyranids
Necrons
Knights
Sisters of Battle

C – decent but more for fun
AMTL
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Ulani
Vanaheim
Saim-Hann
Lost and the Damned
Red Corsairs
Iron Warriors
Skitarri

D – sad times
White Scars
Alaitoc
Yme-Loc
World Eaters

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Interesting debate, but there also seems to be a sentiment that tournament list matchups are playing an increasing part in the game, and also the quality of opposing players.

To what extent do you think these offset the rankings presented?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:05 pm 
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I’d say player quality is probably sufficient to bridge 1 tier. So a better player using a tier B list against a weaker player with a tier A list should still win. The exception may be tier D.

Yeah, then there’s obviously, list construction, luck of the draw etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:55 pm 
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White Scars, for me, are not D. C is fairer.

Iyanden at 3k? Not what they used to be.

Largely agree with a lot of it. So much depends on what build in each list is taken.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:12 pm 
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I'm curious why speed freeks are 'top tier' over ghaz orks? the stats for the list are skewed quite badly by the results of Jon Mielcarek who really was the predecessor to Dan in figuring out how to leverage the most skewed list builds... his flying circus list that has an 11-2-1 record really bulks up the win column for the speed freeks.... thing is I reckon you could build a stronger list using ghaz orks.... the main strength of the list was the 16 fightas zooming around every turn, if folks started running that kind of airforce in the ghaz list they would probably start picking up just as many wins...

I'm very curious for suggestions on how to bolster the red corsairs list, I'm pretty sure it should go back to having regular daemonic beasts, and the deathwind pods could be 5pts per stand rather than 10.....

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:13 pm 
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also, ulthwe have a 53% win ratio..... I would place them solidly in the top tier....

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 Post subject: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:12 pm 
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All totally fair points Kyuss. I wasn’t actually going off the stats, purely off where Dan and I would rank them. So the list is coloured by personal preference and experience.

I originally had Corsairs in tier B but Dan reckoned C and he’s run them more than me. Deathwind pods being cheaper and beasts with them could be super interesting.

Ulthwe I see as similar to Squats and Dark Eldar, all somewhere between top of B or bottom A (if that makes sense).

Freaks over Ghaz (for me) is just about the sheer volume of highly mobile solid ground activations they have. That said, I don’t think there’s a lot between tier A and B.

One of the things thinking this through made me really appreciate is that there are far more good, competitive lists than there are weak ones which is massive credit to the list design process!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Not sure white scars are as bad as the others, it's possible to create a version of a codex list that is only moderately inferior (tho obviously inferior nonetheless). They suffer from being directly compared to codex.

For me highlights where the most dramatic impact could be had though - ie down in D and C rather than fiddling with the armies that good players are already happy to take and therefore get the most debate. Some of those really wouldn't take much to make them quite usable - a killer formation or two being well priced, for example, or addressing a drastic omission. I can't see any reason not to attempt to get the more iconic lists into at least 'tier B'.

Not sure about what it would take for alaitoc, something more fundental may be needed like making rangers usable in different roles so they aren't so specialised, a version of the fieldcraft rule and/or a better role for pathfinders. Progress was made with yme loc by giving them a non-autarch SC but the guardian formation is still odd. If you are not assaulting with eldar you are sacrificing a significant part of their value (eg special rules).

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:07 am 
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I wonder if some of these placements are coloured by long term perceptions of a race, some of which may already have been fixed up some by more recent list modifications.

I think they could do with a bit of a boost but I'd put Alaitoc in C rather than D personally. I used them a tournament earlier in the year and got 1 win, 1 draw and 1 loss which isn't amazing but better than my long term tournament average.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:17 am 
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I largely agree with the tiers.

I would put White Scars in C and Red Corsairs in D, and Dark Eldar in B and Siege Masters in A.

Dark Eldar are doing well because they’re new and unusual, Siege Masters can force a draw and even auto win with some match-ups. White Scars are still Marines! Not seen many games with Corsairs but they appear to be expensive marines without ATSKNF.

The strength of Speed Freaks is the cheap Truk+Boyz unit and the more versatile Warlord, the strong air wing was just one way to exploit the list of a few (I don’t actually agree to the nerf!) they deserve to be higher than the Ghaz Orks imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:59 am 
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I largely agree with the list, but i expected less in the uppermost class.

RugII wrote:
The strength of Speed Freaks is the cheap Truk+Boyz unit and the more versatile Warlord, the strong air wing was just one way to exploit the list of a few (I don’t actually agree to the nerf!) they deserve to be higher than the Ghaz Orks imo.


That hurts a lot, Speed Freks were awful at any kind of AT fire and the Fightas were there to counter it. In my case i think that Ghaz are better but not much (more flexibility).

I didn't know about the change, so thaniks for the heads up.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
I largely agree with the list, but i expected less in the uppermost class.

RugII wrote:
The strength of Speed Freaks is the cheap Truk+Boyz unit and the more versatile Warlord, the strong air wing was just one way to exploit the list of a few (I don’t actually agree to the nerf!) they deserve to be higher than the Ghaz Orks imo.


That hurts a lot, Speed Freks were awful at any kind of AT fire and the Fightas were there to counter it. In my case i think that Ghaz are better but not much (more flexibility).

I didn't know about the change, so thaniks for the heads up.


I may have been over generous with tier 1. Pretty good case for Dark Eldar, Squats, and 1k Sons to all be tier 2.

I think freaks are solidly tier 1. Monster BTS, hyper mobile, great assault units, solid air support, and lots of leader.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:50 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
I think freaks are solidly tier 1. Monster BTS, hyper mobile, great assault units, solid air support, and lots of leader.
Especially when played by Tim. . .

I well remember him thrashing all comers years ago in earlier tournies. Whether this would still be the case now against newer lists would be a very interesting test.
;) ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Once you get used to playing against Dark Eldar they can be a laughably easy matchup, conversely it’s never easy facing off against hordes (Freaks), lots of Reinforced Armour (Sons), and decent War Engines (Squats) as they have no Achilles Heel.

If the BTS is not on the table DE will struggle
If there’s lots of opposing air DE will struggle
Enemy scout screens... DE will struggle
Snipers are VERY effective against DE
Enemy has First Strike DE will struggle
Lots of enemy AA DE will struggle
If the enemy constantly threatens camping the Webway Portal DE will struggle
If DE are consistently out activated they will struggle

They’re like a glass rapier, really fragile, and only any good against the right targets! Incubi have two cc3+ attacks each..... but are ff6+!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK Tier List
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
I think freaks are solidly tier 1. Monster BTS, hyper mobile, great assault units, solid air support, and lots of leader.
Especially when played by Tim. . .

I well remember him thrashing all comers years ago in earlier tournies. Whether this would still be the case now against newer lists would be a very interesting test.
;) ;D

I also modified the army list to make my old army more expensive.

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