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Orkeosaurus Tactics

 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:02 pm 
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I agree with your view.
We played Ferals for the better part of forty games and it was never an issue, and christ I'm a corrupt failed lawyer!
It all comes down to the idea of: do you wiin cause you played better or cause you found a sound loophole.
Still, the 5cm get out and 5cm counter charge is pretty horrid in itself. Few units can have a great crescent of FF at 11 cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:27 am 
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I thought the Saurus would Countercharge 5cms and then the troops inside would get a 5cm dismount.

As an aside does it say something in the movement rules about no part of the model's base moving more than it's movement allowance? I.e no measuring from front of the base to the back of the base?


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:21 am 
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So when you guys measure you can move then spin the base to gain an extra 40mm then do it again so marching you could add 12cm to your move?


Also it does say about keeping in formation you cant have gaps of more then 5cm so you wouldnt have to be within 5cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:01 am 
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Norto wrote:
So when you guys measure you can move then spin the base to gain an extra 40mm then do it again so marching you could add 12cm to your move?

Also it does say about keeping in formation you cant have gaps of more then 5cm so you wouldnt have to be within 5cm.


I've never seen that done - and it would be a proper plate of cheese to do so.

On the second point you would need part of the base within 5cm but even so you still get 10+cm counter coming out of the saurus. Personally, after the shock it gave me the first time it happens I was ok with it, just meant adapting my game a bit and being more careful about measuring distances!

On the 5m warm up, totally agree. In the UK most of this stuff is part of the tournament pack or has rulings. The warm up is mostly used to agree what terrain is what (building or ruin being the common discussion) plus explaining any weird stuff in your army!

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:28 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
5 min warmup probably, or down to a TO/group (like EpicUK or EpicAU) to set things ahead of time, I'm fairly sure that EUK permit the situation as described above, only part of the base has to remain within 5cm of the transport, so you can reach things over 10cm away (or 15cm for speed >=30cm) with a standard countercharge with mounted troops

the rulebook uses 'within' for many things, but never 'wholly within' so it's about consistency really, if you're going to say that troops can only disembark wholly within 5cm, then it's probably quite reasonable to insist that units have to be wholly within 5cm (or 20cm for scouts) for coherency (another example where basing choice can be an advantage) and if we go down that path then does a unit or war engine have to be wholly within range of the target, or for a matter of fact does a target have to be wholly within range of the shooter

none of these things are stipulated in the rulebook and a decent case could be made for many of them ("you can only just reach the barrel of the gun, how are you expected to hit the vulnerable bits of the vehicle??")

but yeah 5min warmup is for those things :)


It's true that the rulebook never says "wholly/fully/entirely within". It only ever says "within". Therefore it's curious that EpicUK makes a point of defining "fully within" without mentioning that that expression doesn't exist in the rules. Perhaps it was to assist UK TOs for "house ruling" purposes.

As others have said, bunging it in the 5min warm up is not ideal. For the reason that it otherwise gives an (extra) advantage to certain base shapes I would prefer a "fully within" approach for disembarking being widely adopted. That is also because it feels right to me (same as Norto) In respect to consistency there is a precedent in the rules for a different approach: deployment zone is "within 15cm" of table edge but I think everyone plays it as fully within. RAW they do not have to.


flyingthruwater wrote:
I thought the Saurus would Countercharge 5cms and then the troops inside would get a 5cm dismount.

As an aside does it say something in the movement rules about no part of the model's base moving more than it's movement allowance? I.e no measuring from front of the base to the back of the base?


I think it is correct that it is the saurus that countercharges not the troops (though it's still 5 + 5)

I don't see anything in the movement rules about how to measure


Norto wrote:
So when you guys measure you can move then spin the base to gain an extra 40mm then do it again so marching you could add 12cm to your move?


There's no rule to say you can't ;)


StevekCole wrote:
On the 5m warm up, totally agree. In the UK most of this stuff is part of the tournament pack or has rulings. The warm up is mostly used to agree what terrain is what (building or ruin being the common discussion) plus explaining any weird stuff in your army!


I wish that were (more) true. They do clarify a few things but there's still a lot of issues unfortunatley.

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Last edited by ffoley on Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:46 pm 
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I suggest emailing EpicUK, I know Steve has a document with all of the suggested FAQ/5 min warmup issues in it, they are working on an 'official' rulings document AFAIK

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Yeah while I applaud NetEA from trying to tell us "how to play with our toys" whenever there's a vague item, a very detailed document listing items and questions that probably should be answered by a TO prior to accepting lists is a good thing. Related would be answering those or a subset of those for testing purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:08 pm 
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For me the part that sticks in my craw a bit is the clear advantage given to players who base with strips rather than squares or circles. When the rules allow such a vast range of shapes and sizes then instances of one shape/size being better than others should, ideally, be reduced to a minimum.

I advocate "wholly within" for dismounting purposes to make for a leveller playing field


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:39 am 
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If the TO has ruled it before hand its fine everyone knows, but if it gets sprung mid game and its ruled that way im moving my guys back. I think everyone would agree to allow this to happen. If it got sprung on me and it was never addressed beforehand and i wasnt allowed to move my models back, thats when i would get pissed. I dont think ive come accross someone that wouldnt allow the move back. Its all good in the UK if its been ruled that way before hand id be happy.

Anyway back to the crit, is there a reason the uk rules it different. Not sure who approved it first and the thoughts of who wrote it second why its different?


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:01 pm 
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In Sweden we've decided to go for the whole base within 5cm as a rule at tournaments. Easier to remember for everyone and it doesn't matter what kund of base you have.

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:33 pm 
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I would agree norto that's a not very sporting scenario you describe. Good thing to be consistent and clear about this stuff prior to the event.

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:25 pm 
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I think the set up argument nails it - otherwise i'm going to start setting up 19cm from the base line :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Blip, fortunately the set up rules are clear on that being illegal.

Agree, as long as it's consistent I don't mind too much. That plus I'm glad everyone agrees that my brother who pioneered the 14cm orkeasaurus counter charge is both a horrible power gamer and history's greatest monster ;D ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:27 am 
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Haha curtains!!!!!

Im not so much worried about people unloading and going outside the 5cm as again some bases might favor others when trying to place. Im just not keen on the b2b contact.

Since this thread isnt on topic anyway i might just ask a question here.

Placement of pods or planetfalls. Can you plot at a point on impassable then place within 15 on impassable then scatter and land safeley? Just getting gamey about placing pods on large pieces of impasable and pushing yourself to either side that suits at the time of coming in :P


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