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Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:59 am 
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I was having a discussion with various people and this old chestnut came up. So I thought I would put the discussion online.

Which armies do you think distinctly 'Overpowered' and why?

My personal 'bête noire' are Chaos lists in general especially the Black Legion and more recently the Thousand Sons.
High strategy roles, 1+ initiative, Daemon summoning and large numbers of Fearless units and formations make these lists hard to stop or counter even when you have the right tools. Even if you break them, there is a 50% chance they will recover and resume their advance. I have long argued that they are therefore somewhat under-priced and some stats a tad excessive.

So which armies do you hate to face and why?
Let go and have a Rant!

(but please stay civil) ;) :D


Last edited by Ginger on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:23 am 
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Biel-tan - The obvious eldar "cheese" (full consolidate moves, triple retain) Avatar, void spinners, exarches, warpspiders, shinning spears. Anyways they are an extreme potent all the toys and then some list.

Thousands sons: Truckloads of RA fearless marines with dreadclaws.

Necrons: Living metal, teleport/portal cheese, phase out. Many people dislike facing this list though generally because of the special rules just negate their special rules not so much because they are over powered.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:48 am 
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Iyanden Eldar, full of triple retain, core formations contain fearless infantry or vehicle walkers with 4+ RA save CC MW, and either ranged MW or Lance weapons.

Eldar titans with holo-fields that give a 3+ save even in close combat against TK weapons.

A plethora of aircraft including a bomber/WE that can aerial assault in 4 wraithguard.

War Engines (engines of Vaul) that get range 75cm MW, or carry around a mobile webway portal, and they have RA.

Hit and Run Tactic (move-shoot-move, shoot-move-move)

A crazy Bad @#S W/E walker Avatar that they get for free that has a 3+ RA save and MW at range and CC.

Large Guardian formations that get a free farseer in their number, and can add up to 9 extra units including wraith lords and wraith guard. They can than add transports to move them about. Expensive, abut extremely hard to kill off.

Swords of Vaul - falcon tanks, that can have prism cannon and Anti-Air Fire storms as replacements for the falcons.

And specialist formations like rangers, aspect warriors, and war walkers.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:21 am 
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Hi Ginger

Thanks for starting this conversation. I was really looking forward to seeing what people had to say and particularly seeing if there was an obvious divide between the various meta’s around the world. I think that is very interesting and I am interested to think and discuss why that might be if it’s the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:44 am 
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I don't find Eldar broken, they either win or loose big, but people only remember when they do their cheesy thing really well.

I find these lists tough:

LatD horde
Feral Ork horde
KoS horde
EUK Nid horde
Necrons

I struggle with hordes..... killing enough to clear objectives and not just getting worn down, I'd happily fight any Eldar list over a horde as you can take out one or two key formations and cripple them! But Necrons are like Eldar, but with armour and on steroids.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:10 am 
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Horde lists can be tough but are quite vulnerable to clipping assaults and BP weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Eldar- nigh unstoppable on the oz tournament rotation. Too many reasonably priced
toys paired with their special rules- they should only be allowed 2 support/core

I mostly play 30k though, so.. marines?


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:05 pm 
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fattdex wrote:
Eldar- nigh unstoppable on the oz tournament rotation. Too many reasonably priced
toys paired with their special rules- they should only be allowed 2 support/core



This!

Eldar have the tools to make a poor player average, an average player good and a great player nigh unstoppable while sticking to approved lists.

Free avatar, high strat, full move after engagement, cheap toys at a 1 to 3 ratio, triple retain, holofields, double inspiring.

The only time Eldar were not on the podium at a tournament in Aus, they just weren't playing.
Last time they were beaten at a high level tournament? By a list that is now banned at tournament play.

At the moment if you want to compete at a tournament in Australia you have to try and write a list to try and beat Eldar first, everything else second.

Also Iyanden. A full fearless army is pretty stupid.
I know they can break easily, but a smart general still can use those units to their advantage with shoving them in your face and using them to screen and they still remain FF or CC gods. (They should be autonomous rule, or at least double blast marker rule. Not fearless).

But mainly yes - Eldar need to be toned down. It's the army that has the tournament scene shaking their head with "wtf bullshit Eldar" every time.


Last edited by Mard on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:08 pm 
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I played alot of games against beil tan lately. Mics list was one that stood out to me. He an amazing player and great guy. Im not trying to dampen his win at cancon. Defs derserved it with his skill. Congrats.

But....
With Mics list in mind.

Avatar [0pts]
Aspect Warrior Warhost c/w 8 Shining Spear, +Exarch, +Autarch [400pts]
Aspect Warrior Warhost c/w 8 Shining Spear, +Exarch, +Exarch [350pts]
Guardian Warhost c/w 5 Guardians, 1 Farseer, 2 Hvy Wpn Platform [150pts]
Guardian Warhost c/w 5 Guardians, 1 Farseer, 2 Hvy Wpn Platform [150pts]
Ranger Troupe c/w 4 Rangers, +1 Ranger [125pts]
Ranger Troupe c/w 4 Rangers [100pts]
Swords of Vaul c/w 3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm [250pts]
Swords of Vaul c/w 3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm [250pts]
Night Spinner Troupe c/w 3 Night Spinners [175pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Scorpion [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Scorpion [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Void Spinner [275pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Void Spinner [275pts]

Eldar Beil Tan - strat 4 means u can set up on your terms, corner or standard odds are your going first so the games already on your terms. marines for the exception and a few others for roll off.

then to look accross the board

guardians, weak but have the role of screening and can pull out a free avatar that you can do nothing about except keep your distance or pray u get the strat roll or waste shots trying to snipe the farseer. And grabbing objectives. 4+ to assault isnt that bad either.

rangers, cheap good seam fine. fits the role with sniper. cheap activations and good screening unit. Easier to break the marines snipers but half the price a little less armour and has all the eldar rules.

Felcones decent ammount of AT shots, decent AP shots and free AA, 2x 2 at 4+. Better then any army.

Shinning spears have one of the highest armour of the aspects, 8 of them double inspiring. so with the strat roll and first turn its shoot blast marker and assault with 4+ lance 5+ FF for pop up, sorry terminators. 50cm assault range. they are up by 4 in the assault before you start. then after it they can retreat or grab objectives or support another assault and u can do bugger all about it and mics list theres 2 of them.

Scorpions - 3dc 75 range macro 2+ cant leave them alone. 2 of them.

void spinners BP 3 template disrupt for some pretty good supresson and to be able to hit anything that threatens you first turn. cant leave these guys alone either. Have you been his by disrupt while broken and not fearless?

night spinners cheaper version of the voids at 90 dont have to worry about these until turn 2 but by then ull be in range so they are gona hit you if u do leave them.

everything in the list is good and u have to worry about things straight away. speed is crazy and being able to retreat to cover after an assault is no risk except the assault itself which is in your favor because the rest of the list u cant leave alone from the get go. unless the dice odds arnt in your favor your usually going to win with a bit of practise with them.

This is all from my experiences playing against them. Just seams like there are to many good things going on here.



If i said hey the viorla list just got strat 4, a FREE unit that pops out of a Ethereal at the start of any turn with 3DC 3+ 6+inv with 2x 2+MX EA and 2+ normal CC, plus the tau jet backs allowed them to make a full consolidate move after they assault and their AA went up to 4+ youll say thats way OP. And its still not army wide.


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 Post subject: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Speed Freaks for me. In particular Skorcha spam with high activation count. Great assault power, great mobility, 1+ activations, ability to take horrendous air assaults. Any army which averages 20 points per unit is just good. Think my usual tournie result is a draw on time against them (where I'd be about to lose heavily on turn 4). Ferals I find hard to beat easy to draw with. Landing Craft + double thunder brick marines are rather nasty too! Krieg are also brutal. RA and 20+ infantry + inspiring in assaults. Shed loads of ignore cover and TK shooting.

Agree with Rug on BT, you can lose spectacularly with them. Not sure if necrons are actually broken, more just really unenjoyable to play against. The way they break the game mechanic (and of course all armies break the mechanic to a greater or lesser extent - ATSKNF, hit and run, etc) makes for very dull games. Nids I don't have huge issues with but that's because I tend to play against them with squats which is a pretty good match up. I hate playing them with eldar.

What I'm thoroughly enjoying is the variation in this thread! If we all hate certain armies probably means the balance is pretty good.

Now, which armies are underpowered is a really interesting one to me...

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Last edited by StevekCole on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:34 am 
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I've been asked to give my 2 cents so FWIW:

Biel Tan IMO are really the only approved list that is as close to OP as anything can be in E:A. It truly is a kitchen sink list that does it all with very few drawbacks or major weaknesses. It's like GW wrote the list to counter every other list that was written previously... That doesn't sound like GW does it...? :D :D

All other Eldar lists are just an offshoot of it and therefore have similar problems - some not as pronounced and others compensate for removal of certain units with other power injections e.g. all RA infantry etc.

Other lists bring many other aspects of cheese to the game but few match the BT list (I can't comment on the Squats list as I've never encountered them).

IMO the "OP problem" in Epic is largely due to the fact that a large proportion of lists can't fight other lists well (either having been written first and then having to fight a list that can counter that list or just an under powered list because the writer doesn't want to go overboard with the necessary inclusion of cheese). The process of list building generally starts at the extreme for the most part and removes things as required when people finally arc up about it - except there are times when the reduction doesn't go far enough - and often doesn't include immediate counters to OP at inception.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:24 am 
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The NetEA Eldar lists are slightly more powerful than the EUK equivalent which maybe why there isn't a problem with Eldar in the UK?

I've found that having used Eldar a lot I find them particularly easy to cripple because I know how.... I've never played using a horde or Necrons which is probably a contributing factor as to why I struggle.


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:27 am 
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EUK wise, the Death Guard and World Eaters lists are weak, and Skittarii are not great, Alatoc are rubbish!


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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:17 pm 
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RugII wrote:
EUK wise, the Death Guard and World Eaters lists are weak, and Skittarii are not great, Alatoc are rubbish!


I think there's some decent death guard builds. Agree on the others. Saim Hann and Ulani are a bit disappointing too (at least at 3k). Skitarri are very limited.

Agree about once you know how to play as an army it makes a big difference to how you play against them!

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 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered'
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:24 pm 
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I've used my unpainted EUK Skitarii 3 times so far. Won 3 times. Therefore they are the best army and need nerfing. :D

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