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Need tactical advice (Black Legion)

 Post subject: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Hi everybody.

I have some experience in NetEA with Space Marines (codex) and IG (Minerva and Steel legion). Now, I'm planning to start with a Black Legion army.

Can you give me some tactical advice? For example:
- What units are "mandatory"
- Best formations, or "combos"
- Are they very different from the loyal marines? How?
- Best ways to use daemons.
- Anything you want!

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:32 pm 
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Overmind wrote:
- What units are "mandatory


from a rules POV then retinues definitely, but you'll probably want at least 3 to form the core of your force, you'll probably want terminators for deep striking, obliterators for AA, chosen for scouting duties and either decimators, deathwheels or ferals for shootiness and general war engine stuff, make sure there are plenty of daemonic pacts around

Quote:
- Best formations, or "combos"


retinues with daemons can be evil, I loathe decimators, they are awesome against guard and orks with big blocks of infantry.... terminators with support from retinues and daemons... chosen in drop pods....

Quote:
- Are they very different from the loyal marines? How?


massively different, bigger retinues, int2+ spaceship, no deathwind, no air-assault capabilities, no ATSKNF, daemons...

Quote:
- Best ways to use daemons.


mass engagements on turn 2 then finishing off on turn 3, double forwards and get into engage range of multiple targets... summon daemons and engage!

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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:22 am 
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Overmind wrote:
Hi everybody.

I have some experience in NetEA with Space Marines (codex) and IG (Minerva and Steel legion). Now, I'm planning to start with a Black Legion army.

Can you give me some tactical advice? For example:
- What units are "mandatory"
- Best formations, or "combos"
- Are they very different from the loyal marines? How?
- Best ways to use daemons.
- Anything you want!

Thanks in advance!


1) Mandatory = I think you will struggle without a solid core of either mounted retinues or bike coys.

2) I love my bike Coys with DPrince, and mounted retinues with Daemons are always a winner. Lots of people here rave about Deathwheels but I prefer Decimators myself. And Termies with DPrince are pretty sweet too.

3) Yes very different. the lack of ATSKNF is the biggest difference, but also bigger formations, cheap daemons, and access to additional warengines changes the dynamic.

4) Id suggest buying 8-10 for a 3k match and using them to support the two or three critical engagemens that you make. I run through which daemons I think are best here - https://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/201 ... a-daemons/ - tho it is in the context of the Lost and the Damned list.

Hopefully that helps, CSM were my first Epic army :)

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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:25 pm 
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Thanks so much for the advice. I found it very usefull. Some questions:

- It seems to be an army very focused to assaults, primary becouse of daemons. Is it true?
- Do you think they're more powerfull (or less) than the loyal space marines?


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:53 am 
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This is great guys, thanks, I'm in the process of building a chaos list myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 3:03 am 
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Quote:
- It seems to be an army very focused to assaults, primary becouse of daemons. Is it true?


To be fair, pretty much all epic armies are assault focused (Tau, AMTL, and IG to a lesser extent. This is more because they have superior ranged abilities but even then they still need to dish out/deal with assaults). But yes, BL can be very strong in assaults. Daemons are fantastic in that it let's you distribute your forces at the right time. Scatter enough daemonic pacts among your formations and this allows that embarrassingly tiny chosen formation to likely double in size (based on average 2D3 summoning) and potentially even triple it's assault power once certain daemons hit the field. No one is safe!!!! ;D

Quote:
- Do you think they're more powerfull (or less) than the loyal space marines?


I wouldn't say they are more or less powerful. Just different. Loyalists aren't as numerically superior but ATSKNF let's them stay in the fight longer and makes them less likely to get wiped out in assaults if things turn south. While you can't stand toe to toe in a shoot out with IG, add in thunderhawk(s) and you have an extremely mobile force that can cut out key elements like a finely tuned scalpel. BL have numbers on their side and some nice long ranged options scattered about but are perhaps not as precise in assaults.


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 1:05 pm 
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Redgeran wrote:
Quote:
- It seems to be an army very focused to assaults, primary becouse of daemons. Is it true?


To be fair, pretty much all epic armies are assault focused (Tau, AMTL, and IG to a lesser extent. This is more because they have superior ranged abilities but even then they still need to dish out/deal with assaults). But yes, BL can be very strong in assaults. Daemons are fantastic in that it let's you distribute your forces at the right time. Scatter enough daemonic pacts among your formations and this allows that embarrassingly tiny chosen formation to likely double in size (based on average 2D3 summoning) and potentially even triple it's assault power once certain daemons hit the field. No one is safe!!!! ;D



You can also tool the CSM list to be firefight heavy rather than assault heavy - use Tzeentch flamers, and then use Ferals / Deathwheels to initiate engagements and support fire using the retinues / Daemons.

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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 3:59 pm 
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Yeah I was just oversimplifying it. Great combo btw. It reminds a lot of the IG mechanized infantry company and warhound synergy. A very effective combo I'd say. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 2:33 pm 
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What do you think about the following army list?

- Retinue of tzeentch, with 4 cult marines, 3 obliterators, chaos warlord and daemonic pact.
- Retinue of chaos undivided
- Terminators (6) of khorne, with daemon prince and daemonic pact
- chosen of tzeentch, with daemonic pact
- 4 defilers
- decimator
- decimator
- daemon pool: 7 lesser daemons.
2500 points


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 4:01 pm 
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3 obliterators and 4 cult marines in one retinue is overkill. Drop a pair of obliterators and try to get some hellblades (swap out some of the extra terminators to free up points?). Make sure to buy rhinos for the non-oblit retinue and chosen. Oblits can't go in rhinos, so if you want to make the cult marines into a mobile assault formation maybe swap things around there as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 4:39 am 
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What Apoc said. Also, try to not have your supreme commander in the same formation as your BTS. That way you don't hand your opponent 2 birds for the price of 1 stone. Not that killing 8 CSM, 3 Obliterators, and 4 cult marines would be an easy task lol.

Also consider a devastation cruiser for the termies to planetfall from via dreadclaw. Teleporting is great but can be a little risky. Especially with armies that have equal or higher strategy ratings. There simply isn't a guarantee the termies will go first. Worst case scenario your opponent has a lower strategy rating and you can still leave the option open for teleporting. The orbital bombardment/pin-point attack is a nice bonus as well. Dreadclaws are also decently accurate. They don't prep as well as deathwinds on loyalist marine drop pods do but they also don't scatter. For a melee focused formation such as terminators I find this invaluable.


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:05 pm 
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Drop pods don't scatter? Are you sure?

Everybody: thanks for the help!


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:30 pm 
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Redgeran wrote:
Yeah I was just oversimplifying it. Great combo btw. It reminds a lot of the IG mechanized infantry company and warhound synergy. A very effective combo I'd say. :)


Yes that worked beautifully in a recent game. Unfortunately I was playing Orks at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 6:13 pm 
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[quote="Overmind"]Drop pods don't scatter? Are you sure?
/quote]
yeah, chaos ones don't get the deathwind attack of marine pods and but don't scatter and are allowed to manually move drop site by up 15cm to make up for it (check rules in BL army list for specifics).

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 Post subject: Re: Need tactical advice (Black Legion)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:17 pm 
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A very intersting topic as I am currently putting my Black legion together and trying to work out a list to use.

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