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AMTL - How do you beat them?

 Post subject: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Thought that I would start this off as there have been some recent comments on just how difficult this list is to play against.

So at the point of angering all the AMTL players out there here are some ideas.

My old favourites are the Imperial Guard, going back to the last time I took them to a tournament this is the list that I used:
    Reg HQ + Hydra
    Mech Inf Comp
    SHT Company (3x Shadowswords)
    Deathstrikes
    Rough Riders
    Shadowsword
    Hydra Battery
    Manticores
    Vultures
    Thunderbolts
    Thunderbolts

My style of play would change from attacking the largest titan to start off with to looking to remove the smaller cheaper activations. Vultures and Deathstrikes should be enough to see off a Warlord, but if you can target two Warhounds then I have found so much the better. Of course the Deathstrikes are target number 1 for the AMTL which is why the Shadowswords are there as back up and turn 2/3 killing stuff. Doesn't always work, missing Volcano Cannons & Deathstrikes are a common occurrence but that's gaming.

The Roughriders are used as either a cheap blocking formation or to engage smaller formations whilst the RegHQ & Mech Inf are the last lines of defence/blocking the advance of the titans. If everything is going well you can ever engage with one formation whilst the other supports and aims to bring down a titan with shear weight of dice.

I'd be interested to see other people's lists and tactics to for facing off against the AMTL.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:44 pm 
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I played guard vs. titans last night with a pretty similar list with a bit less TK (only took 2 shadowswords in place of an inf coy and some upgrades etc).

Ignored the 900pts of warlord completely (deathstrikes etc went for a reaver instead), killed small activations instead and tried to keep out of LoS. By end of game there were two battle titans on full voids and DC still, but at a massive activation disparity.

Tactic: Ignore big titans were possible (and accept there will be losses), pick off small stuff while trying to hide.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:15 pm 
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Here's one where a fairly standard Ork Warhorde took my AMTL to pieces in a systematic manner, winning after turn 4 on points no less. It would have been won on objectives by the Orks, if my Thunderbolts hadn't killed a few critical units on turn 4...

http://sdahl.net/~sdahl/whepic/20130525b/

It was using the v3.18 list with my trusty old, no longer playable, Dual-Quake Barrage Warlord sitting on the Blitz.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Especially good stuff SpeakerToMachines.
I appreciate the guard information, but it's rather biases towards Steel Legion. I'd really like to see some of the other factions / lists get some tactics here as well because frankly, it always seems to boil down to SL v AMTL eventually :D. When I play guard I don't worry that much about titans simply for the fact I've got good access to TK weapons, even on an all-comers list. Not as much with other factions without being geared towards that opponent.

Anyone got ideas around:
Tau
Marines, other than massed Termie attacks
Chaos

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:22 pm 
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With Blood Angels, I usually hit the biggestbaddest of the titans, with massed termies attack.. oops, I have no other idea :D

Without them, you can hunt down Warhounds, but it's no use -if they hit you with MW, your superb 4+ armour saves is worthless, and it's enought to totally kill a small SM formation -no need to break them, they die easily -devastators, assaults, predators, land speeders, bikes etc -anything that is not in a LR or in a Tbrick /teleports -oops, termies again :D

So if you hunt down the AMTL activations (Sentinels, Warhounds), the battle titans hunt down your formations -the high number of activations is not for SM lists anyway.. So get their BTS, and try to spend 1-2 turns in the AMTL deployement zone, to keep them away from the objectives.


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Dptdexys took my EUK titan list apart with his ulthwe, while we were using *hackspit* EpicUK lists, I'm fairly sure the same basic principles apply....

I ran

Warlord - 2x TLD, VC, CCW, legate
Reaver - melta cannon, inferno gun, CCW
Reaver - 2x Plasma cannon, CCW
Warhound - 2xPBG
Robots
Tbolts

He had (from memory)

3x falcons
3x Mechanised Black Guardians
1x Black guardians on foot
2x Rangers
Vypers
Vampire
Nightwings

The game consisted of him using his mobility to keep well back and out of range/LOS of the titans which had to double, the warlord missed an entire round of shooting on turn 1 as there were no targets available, Dave then strafed my robot blitz guard with the vampire and shot my tbolts down with the nightwings, the rest of the game consisted of him picking off my titans one by one, the warhound went down to a guardian air assault after it blew up a few falcons, both reavers were then stripped of shields by falcons, engaged+damaged by wave guardians and broken, they were subsequently both destroyed by crossfiring falcon formations and further guardian engagements leaving the warlord alive at the end of turn 3, he had to double into the other half to grab the T&H and prevent TSNP and was promptly broken through blast markers

it was an utter and effortless kicking.... I made some rube moves, but Dave played his army perfectly, hid and waited to pounce with his rapid skimmers after I'd burned all my measly activations....

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:30 pm 
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With eldar, I usually bring a Dragonship -and at least 2 formations of Fire Prisms/Falcons, to rip the void shields. So, first turn, Prisms, rip down shields, retain, Dragonship -and double retain -if needed, with tanks, or shining spears from wabway, etc. I usually hit the most dangerous -the BTS, or the support large/medium scale battletitan -the one, with long range barrage weapons, lot of MWs, etc. So just shooting, no engage if possible.

And if you manage to alpa strike the hardest of them, psichology will do the rest -the AMTL player will start to sweat for sure :D

With eldar, it's easy to use your mobility to hunt down the lone warhounds, with Prisms/Falcons, or simply engage them, and then move close to the next one, and then support another engagement.


Last edited by pati on Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Aye, the shoot - move is one of the nicest abilities of the eldar. I've been on the receiving side of that more than once. The rolling engagement can be brutal.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Not for those armies, but with Eldar I have used rangers to good effect and many armies have something similar.
- Use them to block off the board, they can be extremely annoying.
- March them up to ZoC a titan, e.g. the artillery reaver. This forces the AMTL to use a more expensive activation to break them, and depending on deployment that usually means a titan remains near their baseline instead of moving up the field. This is a decent deal, because whilst rangers cost 100 points, all of the titans are supposed to do something useful: for warhounds and arty titans it's shoot hiding formations, for the other titans it's getting upfield towards objectives. If you have multiple ranger formations, all the better.

More generally:
- Don't be tempted to stay out in the open - suffer the -1 for move-shoot-move.
- Falcons are great at taking down shields
- You're quite capable of engaging titans to death. But don't firefight anything bigger than a warhound without taking down the shields. If you really want to kill it use a retain to stop it marshalling, but even a marshal is not the end of the world as if it does that then it ain't doing what it needs to do (shoot, or move fast towards objectives).

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Now we have to decide, we are talking about a tournament (so all rounder), or a list planned especially against titans/AMTL. The biggest problem, is that some list work well as all rounders (like eldar, or IG deathstrikes, vultures, etc as we previously discussed here), some list work only if they're specialized against titans! This is why it's hard to play against them -eg. in a tournament, with an army full pf AP/AT and few MW/TK..


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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:55 pm 
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I've never found codex marines able to take on titans without tailored lists. Of course tailored for titans also means that they tend to chew through RA based armies about at the same level of effectiveness as well so you get some leeway there. Once you go that way though I find that those lists tend to lose out to hoard based armies then in my experience. Of course that's also largely due to my inabilities as a general as much as any perceived deficiencies of the list mind you.

Again, looking for some ideas for marines that are not involving terminator deathstars or for Tau.

I will fully admit that terminators might just be it for marines and that's ok.

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Tournament please and mine was ;)

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Mine was a club game but no tailoring took place.... dave was using his standard ulthwe list and I've been running that titan list since the EUK list came out (although I am effing sick of robots and their inability to negotiate any form of terrain)

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:05 pm 
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How about predators to strip shields and air assulting assaults/devs to engage? Could that work?

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL - How do you beat them?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:24 pm 
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With nids... still got no real idea other than wait for them to rust and over grow them!!

Though you could say that of any all fearless list, if nid's can't force you to run away when broken it's an up hill fight.

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