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Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repost

 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:26 pm 
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Aircraft barging was in the very first FAQ. 4.2.5, first question, emphasis added:

Quote:
Q: Can an aircraft land in an enemy ZoC?
A: Only if they are making an Air Assault. In such a situation the aircraft could land right in the middle of a formation, and, assuming it was a War Engine, it could barge enemy units out of the way in order to make space in which to land.


===
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
aircraft ignore ZoC and figures until they suddenly appear and push everyone away from them like a big rock fell

Exactly.

Quote:
which is even less supported by the rules than the other two options, because it selectively enforces differently them at arbitrary points along the sequence (hence the confusion as to what is allowed and when)

The rules for transitioning between aircraft status and ground unit status are fuzzy. Landing is just a vague, "magical" transition between two radically different sets of rules. Things you plan to do after the landing as a ground unit can affect what is legal during operations as an aircraft, even though the aircraft operations happen first.

So, yes, it's arbitrary in the sense that rules are enforced at different points based on the particular action. It's a collection of "what works" in a series of situations rather than a coherent system which can easily be extrapolated from for new applications.


For the record, multiple attempts have been made to fix various things in the air rules or just generally simplify them, but everything has been unsuccessful.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
So what happens if the Scout formation's and target formation's ZoC are entered simultaneously by a ground formation (a possible scenario which the FAQ would seem to cover) but the attacker does not want to declare an intermingled assault? By your interpretation of the FAQ, the attacker could not do the assault.

I would argue that the intent of the FAQ is that once in a ZoC (or multiple ZoC) you must always head for the nearest enemy unit regardless of formation and regardless of timing of entering ZoC.

A Landa can do this and head for the non-scout formation fulfilling the FAQ requirements.


For the Scouts ZoC to coincide with the Target ZoC, you would have to have a position like this:-
S - 3cm – T2cmT – 5cm - z - - - - - - A
Note, the Target Base is 2cm in this diagram

So there are several points
  1. The Attacker may declare an assault on either formation and only use FF by staying outside the 5cm ZoC, but positioning within 15cm of the selected target.
  2. The Attacker may declare the two formations intermingled and move into B-B with the ‘Target’ (and if other units have the range they can then move into B-B with the Scouts as the target ZoC has been nullified)
  3. The Attacker may *not* move into B-B unless both enemy formations have been declared intermingled, because to do so would be to enter the ZoC of a formation that is not the target of the assault.
    This is the same position as having two enemy formations side-by-side, but only attacking one of them - you have to position the Attackers so that they do not enter the ZoC of the other formation.
  4. The above diagram only applies to ground assaults - the air assault diagram (below) is subtly different.
      S - 6cm - TA - z
    The Scouts (S) are more than 5 cm away from the Target (T) to avoid being intermingled, while still covering them with their ZoC; and the Attackers transport (A) is dropping into B-B with the target, thus entering both ZoCs simultaneously. This aspect of simultaneous entry is *NOT* what the FAQ covers.
  5. The FAQ specifically covers entering the ZoCs sequentially, permitting the entry of the scouts ZoC after entering the Target ZoC (see my earlier diagram and explanation, and also Neal’s answer quoted below)
    nealhunt wrote:
    Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
    Two scout formations (A and B) that are deployed A B A B A B A with 6cm between each unit from formation A and the nearest unit from formation B cannot be assaulted in close combat (because a close combat assault on either formation would enter the control zone of the other formation).

    Correct?

    No. As Ginger notes, there are 2 "must do" rules in a charge move - do not enter ZoC except the target, and must move to base contact once you enter the ZoC of a unit. The "must reach base contact" takes precedence. So, once you enter the ZoC of the target, you can proceed to base contact.

    Of course, with formations spread out that much it would be much easier to just do a clipping assault on the scouts. Even low-FF units should win handily.

I hope that is 'official' enough for you. However, as L4 says DWWFY - and as your event is on the opposite side of the world from me, I must regretfully decline entering so you won't get any further argument from me ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:02 pm 
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NealHunt wrote:
Ginger wrote:
The FAQ specifically covers entering the ZoCs sequentially, permitting the entry of the scouts ZoC after entering the Target ZoC (see my earlier diagram and explanation, and also Neal’s answer quoted below)

No. As Ginger notes, there are 2 "must do" rules in a charge move - do not enter ZoC except the target, and must move to base contact once you enter the ZoC of a unit. The "must reach base contact" takes precedence. So, once you enter the ZoC of the target, you can proceed to base contact.

Of course, with formations spread out that much it would be much easier to just do a clipping assault on the scouts. Even low-FF units should win handily.

Could I ask you how you have come to the conclusion that 'The FAQ specifically covers entering the ZoCs sequentially'? That is not mentioned in the FAQ at all. It is just as possible to say that entering 2 formations ZoC at the same time and moving into base to base with the nearest is completely legal and fullfills all the requirements of the FAQ.

Also:
Quote:
The Attacker may *not* move into B-B unless both enemy formations have been declared intermingled, because to do so would be to enter the ZoC of a formation that is not the target of the assault.
This is the same position as having two enemy formations side-by-side, but only attacking one of them - you have to position the Attackers so that they do not enter the ZoC of the other formation.
Where does it say in the FAQ, that the attacker HAS to declare an Intermingled assault to engage the nearest formation? There seem to be a lot of assumptions being made but I honestly can't agree with you interpretation.

Quote:
2.1.12 Scout
Q: It’s possible to place a Scout unit just behind another friendly unit, so that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the friendly unit too. If this happens, can I charge the non-Scout unit? The rules
say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m charging the unit it belongs to.
A: You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then
let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence
over the rule for not entering another unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has
attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:45 pm 
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The ZOC rules lead to so much rules lawyering.

Play by the spirit of the rules and not by the technical wording, and you'll have a much more fun game.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:52 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
The ZOC rules lead to so much rules lawyering.

Play by the spirit of the rules and not by the technical wording, and you'll have a much more fun game.


Quoted for the Truth.

Leave all that other silly nonsense for lesser game systems :)


Tim NZ


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:01 pm 
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I'm with Onyx on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Onyx, if you re-read the wording in the 3rd para of 1.12.3, you will find the statement "Note that charging units may not enter the zone of control of enemy units from another formation that is not the target of the assault." You may also want to check up the FAQ on 1.12.3 as well as re-reading the Scout ZoC in the light of these texts.

You are of course correct that I am making some assumptions, but I have been at pains to explain the various potential scenarios, as you (quite rightly) won't accept the bald statement "cos I say so", or "cos its the way that the game is played". One (apparently false) assumption is that you are aware of the background and context of the Scout FAQ which was debated at length in the SG boards and earlier.

Anyway, you seem determined not to understand or accept either Neal Hunt's much more elegant explanation of the two "must do" rules covering movement and ZoC considerations, or my lengthier interpretations of how they work in practice. So perhaps it is better to do as Zombo and Tim have said; play to the spirit of the game rather than the technical wording; if you or your opponent have a concern, discuss it in the 5 min warm up or settle it by dice throw at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:32 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Onyx, if you re-read the wording in the 3rd para of 1.12.3, you will find the statement "Note that charging units may not enter the zone of control of enemy units from another formation that is not the target of the assault." You may also want to check up the FAQ on 1.12.3 as well as re-reading the Scout ZoC in the light of these texts.

Except in the case described by the FAQ where you can enter 2 formations ZoC and assault the nearest formation.

Really I'm a BIG fan of knowing the rules but also keeping it simple. As you can see from previous posts, I'm not totally alone in the way I see this.
My interpretation does fully comply with Neal's elegant answer.
Quote:
The "must reach base contact" takes precedence. So, once you enter the ZoC of the target, you can proceed to base contact.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:19 am 
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Ginger and Jaggedtoothgrin have both made some good points, to the degree that the I now agree with Spectrar Ghost that an official FAQ on this would be very helpful.

The reason that an FAQ would be good is because behind the very complex interactions of rules we're discussing is the difference between a Landa/TH assault being difficult to stop and it being virtually impossible to stop. 'DWWFY' and the fun spirit of the game are ideals, but frankly a gung ho Ork with a Landa is going to have a very different idea of what's fun from a IG player who has a 650pt artillery company that will die in the first activation of the first turn of every game.
Just being honest here :D



BTW - as a sidenote, if (as a number of people have concluded) a Landa/TH/Equivalent can ignore all other control zones and barge upon landing, isn't an artillery company one of the worst things you can spend 650pts on in Epic?


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:24 am 
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Yup an artillery company is a very weak BTS formation. I've seen it used once in the years I've been playing Epic.

As for an FAQ, we have one now that really covers this situation well enough. There could not be a new FAQ that contradicts an already existing one.

Scout screens have always been about slowing down teleporters (amongst other useful abilities). The best way to slow down aerial assaults is to shot the Landa/THawk/Vampire down or have units on Overwatch waiting for them. Actually, 9 Earthshaker platforms on Overwatch could be quite a deterrent?

Of course any Guard player would want to have there super range guns which can hit anywhere on the board hide behind some Sentinels and be safe from Landas but that's not how Epic plays... (nor do I believe it should be).

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:24 am 
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Onyx wrote:
Ginger wrote:
Onyx, if you re-read the wording in the 3rd para of 1.12.3, you will find the statement "Note that charging units may not enter the zone of control of enemy units from another formation that is not the target of the assault." You may also want to check up the FAQ on 1.12.3 as well as re-reading the Scout ZoC in the light of these texts.

Except in the case described by the FAQ where you can enter 2 formations ZoC and assault the nearest formation.

Onyx, Lets try a different scenario to put the point across, ignoring scouts for a moment:-

        AAA

        aaaaaaaaabbb

  1. Attacker 'A' wants to engage the smaller target 'b', and to move into contact with it. Unless it has declared the two formations intermingled, it must skirt around the ZoC of the units in formation 'a'.
    (If it were to enter the ZoC of 'a' it would then have to move directly into B-B with the nearest unit which is not the designated target.)

  2. However, once a unit of 'A' has entered the ZoC of a unit 'b' it must move directly into contact with that unit, so it can ignore any other ZoCs
    (and thus the 'A' units can line up with the 'b' units in B-B)

IMHO, this interpretation is is describing the timing of entering ZoC, the key rule being that you "Must avoid other ZoCs until entry into the ZoC of a target unit". And the word *until* prevents simultaneous entry of ZoCs.

Now I freely agree that is an interpretation of the 1.12.3 prohibition combined with the various FAQ; perhaps you would write down a detailed example of how you would work the rules differently.

PS.
IMHO FAQs are interpretations, and are overriden by the rules where there is a conflict.
In this case, the scout FAQ is addressing step #2, not step #1 and is an interpretation of both 1.12.3 and 1.7.3 where there is an apparent contradiction as 1.7.3 seems to permit *entry* to multiple ZoCs, whereas it is intended to describe *movement* in various ZoCs. It specifically does *not* override the 1.12.3 prohibition


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:33 am 
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As to the use of Scouts to protect some formation, they are notoriously weak, and all you need to do is shoot away one or two units to lay bare the intended target.

However, I do agree that Artillery companies are rarely used at the 3000 pt level because of their weakness; 3x batteries are far superior though they do cost 100 pts more. And even in earthworks, an artillery comany is very vulnerable to a clipping attack, mainly because it has no countercharge capability.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:50 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
BTW - as a sidenote, if (as a number of people have concluded) a Landa/TH/Equivalent can ignore all other control zones and barge upon landing, isn't an artillery company one of the worst things you can spend 650pts on in Epic?

Again, what the air rules are saying is that they comply with the earlier rules on charging - they do not 'override' them in some manner.
The only person who seems at odds with this is Onyx.

However, given the length and subtlties of the debate, I agree that perhaps the scout FAQ needs to be addressed (again) - though it only needs a minor tweak to explain the intentions with respect to the question of whether simultaneous entry of ZoCs is intended or not


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:55 am 
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Ginger, I'm not the only person with my point of view and you seem to be deliberatly ignoring that FACT.

All your detailed examples, whist very detailed indeed, seem to keep missing the point.

Here's the reply from the official FAQ (again):
Quote:
You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence over the rule for not entering another unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!
This isn't rocket surgery and I don't need to come up with a detailed example of anything. It's there for all to see.
There's nothing else to be said really...

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:04 am 
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So in your opinion, the FAQ overrides the rule - as you say, there is nothing more to say - DWWFY


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