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[2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20/10

 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:17 am 
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What was the outcome!?!


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:40 pm 
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RugII wrote:
What was the outcome!?!


I won 2-1 turn 3.

Round 2 is also complete. Faced Benjoth’s gorgeously painted space Marines and he was incredibly sporting as every dice roll went against him.

3-0 to the sisters turn 3.


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:32 pm 
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IWC is now finished and here, you can find the final ranking :

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Thank you so much Largo, David and Richard for the visit and the true demonstration of what a good Epic player is ! We really to practice more and more ! I will share very soon various series of photo of the event (can I use this subject or another one in a dedicated space of the TC forum ?).
Have a great return in UK and Germany and see you again I hope !


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:52 am 
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Prince_Philippe wrote:
IWC is now finished and here, you can find the final ranking :

Image

Thank you so much Largo, David and Richard for the visit and the true demonstration of what a good Epic player is ! We really to practice more and more ! I will share very soon various series of photo of the event (can I use this subject or another one in a dedicated space of the TC forum ?).
Have a great return in UK and Germany and see you again I hope !


Thank you for running the event, it was excellent, relaxed and welcoming.

Special thanks as well to Xavierovitch, Benjoth and Cael, plus Richard. All of the games were great fun.


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:18 am 
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It was a really fun event, and Philippe and all of the rest of the french players were really friendly and welcoming - especially in being kind enough to speak in English, which was great given how lamentable my ability to speak French is.

The event was really well run, everything went smoothly, and due to it being 4 games over 2 days it was overall a very relaxed couple of days, with plenty of time for everyone to finish their games.

I'd definitely recommend it for next year if anyone was considering making the trip to Lyon, and here's my thoughts on the various aspects of going:

Transport around Lyon was pretty easy - David and I were in a hotel in the city centre, but managed to get to the venue in about half an hour from there each day. Public transport is cheap, reliable, and pretty straightforward to navigate. Getting to Lyon you've got either trains or flights, we flew due to practicalities and timing, which worked fine, and there's a tram that gets you into the city centre in about half an hour at most. Trains go around the country, inlcuding Paris, so i'd be tempted to try Eurostar to Paris and then TGV down to Lyon on another occasion if i could book far enough in advance. It is quite a bit longer, but at least there's not the hanging around for hours in airports to contend with then ;)

Overall the venue was good, lots of room and good lighting. It was a bit on the warm side, but not the end of the world. There were drinks and snacks available throughout, which was great :)

On the gaming itself, on core rules it's similar to E-UK/Net EA, but there are a few differences. First off as far as i'm aware you lose your cover save as defender in an assault if you move. Not sure if this is the same in EA, but in UK you still get it. The main other thing i encountered was deathwinds are a bit odd, in that the infantry could be placed 15cm away from the deathwind, and only the infantry were needing to contend with zones of control, allowing for the deathwind itself to go deep into your scout screens and hit a lot more stuff. Honestly i'm not 100% certain how this compares to the other two, as i don't tend to use them, but worth noting. Terrain plays the same as UK and EA though, and i didn't really hit any rules issues during play.

The trickiest part for me were the lists being in French, and translating them with Google Translate was a bit of a pain, so i stuck to a 'safe' core list where i knew the rules hadn't been changed much from the Original GW standard. The general list design was fine, there was a price hike on air assaults and a bit of a buff on a lot of ground tank units (such as a lot of tanks going from a 4+ save to a 5++ but that all seemed to work ok. There were a few lists i had reservations about on paper such as the AMTL (which can take multiple battle titans and still have a decent activation count) however none of them seemed to be doing particularly well, so it's quite possible my concerns were unfounded. The newer lists have some interesting options too, and would be good to try out i'd say if you can translate french a bit more confidently than i can ;)

I would say that the kind of lists we're used to in the UK for armies like Marines and Eldar would be extremely effective at this kind of event, however it's worth noting players aren't trying to optimise lists and instead seem to be much more taking things they want to take because they think it would be fun and want to try it, so overall it's definitely not as competition driven as say the UK. What's nice about this is that it means you can also take fun stuff and still be competitive within the event, and get to try out things you'd never really be able to take at a UK event unless you were happy being battered for 3-5 games in a row. As such i would strongly urge strict DBAD protocols during list design, and kick loose and have some fun with it instead :)

In summary, a fun weekend and if you fancy a weekend gaming abroad at some point i'd definitely recommend giving it a go!


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:57 am 
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Oh, a few other notes:

Terrain was really nice, but it does go for a more thematic than balanced in distribution. As such there were things like 'ruined city' tables which were almost entirely ruins for terrain, others with just buildings, others with forests etc. No sparse tables however, so plenty of line of sight blocking. Terrain pieces were a big mix in size, so some were as small as 10cm square, while others were probably 30-40cm in size. Distribution of terrain on the tables was varied as well, so for instance some tables were a bit sparse in the corners. This was a bit of an issue for the poor Chap Largo played last round as he got stuck in the corner with Guard (and at most a single unit of sentinels) and got the guts ripped out of his army by a barrage, multiple deathwinds, and then a terminator assault (i would assume - i was busy playing at that point, but i have a pretty good idea of how the army worked after playing it game 3). Deeper scout screens would no doubt have helped there, but mainly it's just to note that you shouldn't assume there will be terrain for you to hide in on deployment. Alternately you might end up with loads of it, it just depended on what table you ended up on (and the luck of the draw as to whether it was actually an issue).

I don't think it necessarily caused too many issues on the whole (barring the above) but it's worth considering when designing your lists. Scouts should always be high on the list of units anyway though!


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:49 pm 
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Thanks a lot for your complete anylisis I'll focuse on a little later !

First, various photos of the event :


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:46 pm 
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great pictures!

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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:30 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Excellent photos Phillipe!

Any chance you can identify which list was Tedus'? I need to know what he used to beat me to 2nd place!


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Tedus plays this list (always in tests) : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygrczyf5dodgq ... 9.pdf?dl=0

Liste TL (principale) + Thagmata (alliés) du Tedus

Legio Titanicus (2525 pts)

Formations de base
01. [700] Titan Reaver (575) poing de combat gauche(0)/thermo-fuseur droit(25)/canon fuseur carapace(25)/multi-lasers de carapace(25)/Légat(50) Cdt suprême
02. [725] Titan Reaver (575) poing tronçonneur gauche(0)/canon volcano droit(50)/canon volcano carapace(50)/icône de dévotion(50) BLM
Formations de soutien (2 par formations de base)
03. [275] Titan Warhound (275) méga bolter vulcain léger(0)/canon inferno léger(0)
04. [275] Titan Warhound (275) méga bolter vulcain léger(0)/canon inferno léger(0)
05. [275] Titan Warhound (275) 2x destructeur turbo laser léger(0)
06. [275] Titan Warhound (275) 2x destructeur turbo laser léger(0)
Thagmata Omnissiah (975 pts) 1/3 des points max

Formations de base
07. [150] 10 unités de tech-thrall (150)
08. [150] 10 unités de tech-thrall (150)

Formations de soutien (2 par formations de base)
09. [150] 5 vorax (150)
10. [150] 5 vorax (150)
11. [150] 5 vorax (150)

Formation de soutien rare (1 par formations de base)
12. [225] 2 avengers (150) + 1 avenger (75)


As RichardL or Le Moustachu_MAsqué (and me) said, It's really difficult to allow quite a raise of activations with such a lot of Titans... I you have various analysis of the situation (and about the Sisters of Battle list) it will be a pleasure to focuse on !


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Prince_Philippe wrote:
Tedus plays this list (always in tests) : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygrczyf5dodgq ... 9.pdf?dl=0

Liste TL (principale) + Thagmata (alliés) du Tedus

Legio Titanicus (2525 pts)

Formations de base
01. [700] Titan Reaver (575) poing de combat gauche(0)/thermo-fuseur droit(25)/canon fuseur carapace(25)/multi-lasers de carapace(25)/Légat(50) Cdt suprême
02. [725] Titan Reaver (575) poing tronçonneur gauche(0)/canon volcano droit(50)/canon volcano carapace(50)/icône de dévotion(50) BLM
Formations de soutien (2 par formations de base)
03. [275] Titan Warhound (275) méga bolter vulcain léger(0)/canon inferno léger(0)
04. [275] Titan Warhound (275) méga bolter vulcain léger(0)/canon inferno léger(0)
05. [275] Titan Warhound (275) 2x destructeur turbo laser léger(0)
06. [275] Titan Warhound (275) 2x destructeur turbo laser léger(0)
Thagmata Omnissiah (975 pts) 1/3 des points max

Formations de base
07. [150] 10 unités de tech-thrall (150)
08. [150] 10 unités de tech-thrall (150)

Formations de soutien (2 par formations de base)
09. [150] 5 vorax (150)
10. [150] 5 vorax (150)
11. [150] 5 vorax (150)

Formation de soutien rare (1 par formations de base)
12. [225] 2 avengers (150) + 1 avenger (75)


As RichardL or Le Moustachu_MAsqué (and me) said, It's really difficult to allow quite a raise of activations with such a lot of Titans... I you have various analysis of the situation (and about the Sisters of Battle list) it will be a pleasure to focuse on !


Merci boucoup!

On the Sisters...it's very similar to the EpicUK list in playstyle but the big standouts are the Dominus with 4 Dominions and 4 Immolators for 225pts. It's very cheap and very powerful. I only brought 2 but if I was being super competitive and mean I'd have brought 3.

The biggest thing though is the Avengers - for 150pts they are incredibly powerful, they have about as much firepower as a tank company but for a fraction of the cost!

I'd suggest dropping the Cannon Vengeur to only 1 shot AP3/AC5, drop the AA from the laser (so it's only AC5) and having the rockets 2*AA6+. It's still very powerful but at least then it can't put out 8 AC5+ from two planes! Or 6 AA5+ when intercepting.


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:23 am 
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The fearless scouting alone on the dominions makes them awesome - great use of those two broken (but still fearless) dominion units really helped you come back from a pretty dire position to hold me to a draw.

Other bits on the FERC sisters list: I really liked the Cathedral - thought it was very characterful and pretty well balanced overall. The smaller war engines did seem to suffer somewhat though from a combination of being slow and having such a short range gun, so in my game against Willyboy they got promptly shot or assaulted off the table before they could do anything. If you were reviewing the list, making them maybe a little less heavily armoured and a bit quicker might make them a bit more of an interesting proposition.

I'd definitely agree with David that the avengers were nuts though, i was super pleased when i managed to kill 3 of the 4 in turn 1, but even that last one was a handful! They could probably be down-gunned and have a points increase currently and they'd still be well worth taking.

On the AMTL side of things, the four core issues are for me are:

1. AMTL probably shouldn't have access to units cheaper than 200pts. Combining multiple battle titans with a strong activation count thanks to being able to spam cheap units is hugely powerful as it really allows the titans to control the flow of the game.

2. Those support units capabilities need to be carefully considered too, as once you start introducing stuff like cheap scouting units to the list you start removing any other real drawbacks the list has (those drawbacks being struggling with objective and board control)

3. Allowing titans to move faster has to be balanced very carefully, as threat range extensions can make them pretty oppressive to play against.

4. Allowing fishing into other lists can be problematic, first because any changes to one has to be considered also in how it might affect the related lists, and also increases the risk of really brutal unintended combos being missed during development.


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 Post subject: Re: [2019][EA][LYON] INTERNATIONAL WARLORD CHALLENGE - 19&20
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:10 am 
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Thanks for the photos. It is always a treat to see your terrain.

RichardL wrote:

On the AMTL side of things, the four core issues are for me are:

1. AMTL probably shouldn't have access to units cheaper than 200pts. Combining multiple battle titans with a strong activation count thanks to being able to spam cheap units is hugely powerful as it really allows the titans to control the flow of the game.

2. Those support units capabilities need to be carefully considered too, as once you start introducing stuff like cheap scouting units to the list you start removing any other real drawbacks the list has (those drawbacks being struggling with objective and board control)

3. Allowing titans to move faster has to be balanced very carefully, as threat range extensions can make them pretty oppressive to play against.

4. Allowing fishing into other lists can be problematic, first because any changes to one has to be considered also in how it might affect the related lists, and also increases the risk of really brutal unintended combos being missed during development.


Your posts made me take interest on it to have another type of AMTL to play, and i think it is not that different from NetEA even if it looks like, at least with the list posted above.

1. Not that different from NetEA: There is 150 points options already and a very similar list to the one posted above can be done with NetEA, at least activations wise, with 2 Reavers, 4 Warhounds and 5 of Crusaders or Fighters for a similar cost to the FERC one.

2. Same can be done with NetEA, while the effectiveness will not be the same.

3. Not only what you wrote about but that option comes very cheap, as it gives +5 speed, Inv. Save, Inspiring and Leader all in one for 100 points or free if not taking two of the carapace weapons (not much of an issue if making an engagement focused Warlord Titan with Thermo fuseur and/or Inferno Canon). I would consider already paying 100 points for the speed only.
This can work for the FERC because they play less power-gaming as you already said before, as i have seen several things along the years which seem overpowered on other of their lists and always found strange.

I plan to test an engage focused FERC list with 20cm Warlords and 25cm Reavers around for the fun of it, probably without the Inspiring and the rest.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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