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Dark Eldar Army List 2017

 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Thanks for all the games deb.
Can you please compile all your proposed changes (succinctly) for the first round of changes.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:56 am 
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OK, for the first round of changes, I think the following changes should be looked at.

Make the Barge of Pleasure an optional swap for the Raiders. Allow someone who has say a Syndicate with 6 warriors, 2 wych units for 1 upgrade, and a haemonculi and wrack for the second to replace the free raiders with barges of pleasure at 1 barge for every 2 raiders rounding up. The cost would be 100 points, so they are not ridiculous to get, but it would also make the formation still expensive enough for what you get as you are taking a lot of upgrades. It also means you do not have the free transports in addition to the heavy barge transports.

I still think the option to shoot from the transport is a Dark Eldar thing. It makes up for their LV being so easily taken out. It is analogous to an open topped vehicle in 40K, where you can shoot and even assault from the raider/venoms. It is more thematic, and I have found out that staying in the transport to shoot enemy all the time is not always the best option. You sometimes need to dismount to engage the enemy in CC - Incubi, Wyches, Wracks, etc are better in CC than FF. It would also make players like myself who thinks the limited weapons ranges, small formation sizes and lack of armour for warriors makes them a second or even third choice for tournaments and games reconsider taking them as being able to have a formation of them to back up the ravagers and having them shoot or FF as support in engagements makes them durable. Perhaps remove it from the Barges only to make it fairer to others, as Barges have shadow fields.

I do not mind the aircraft changes, but would field Razorwing more than Voidraven bombers anytime. Perhaps allow the razor wing to be fielded in formations of 2 to 3 adding 100 points for the 3rd one. Sometimes you have 100 points left over and nowhere to use it except alter a formation by adding an upgrade, which means with the current test list, I will have to pay for their transports.

I absolutely love the partisan rule which gives them +1 to activate if they are engaging the enemy. Keep it.

The Tormentor Titan AA weaponry, even at only 30cm has helped me keep some broken formation alive long enough to rally them, and deter enemy from strafing them while under the umbrella of the Titans AA. Unfortunately I can not stop an artillery strong enemy from shooting at them while broken, but that has always been one of the lists weaknesses.

Although you probably want to keep the changes made to the Barges of Pleasure - particularly the removal of the Desolator, it was always a favoured option of mine to use paired Barge transports to blast the enemy and weaken them down before bringing in a second formation to assault the enemy. You may consider this too powerful, but at only 30cm range, it was one of the only useful artillery weapons DE had apart form the Perditor, which is slow and dies very easily.

The larger Talos Formation is good, and I have in one small test game that I did not record proxy in a few models to make a 7 strong formation. They are very good in larger groups. Expensive but good.

I also like the new leader stats even at 50 points each, the Succubus and Dracon are a powerful addidtion to a formation as they give inspiring and leader abilities.

I think formatons like Hellons, Reavers and Scourges could have the option to add 2 more units to their formation (of their respective unit type) The extra 50 - 75 points maybe more than you can afford, but in some lists it will make the formation more durable. A 6 strong DE formation tends to break very easily, and once broken they are destroyed way too quickly.

In most cases it is an enforced thing to give an army a weakness, the enemy can break them with. For DE it seems that smaller formations that get broken then destroyed easier than most other lists and weapons that have less range than most other armies are their Achilles heel. I think this is to counter their faster speeds or faster transport speeds, but they are so brittle already, and too many enemy have indirect artillery, that hiding behind cover does nothing to help the DE, even sitting in cover some indirect artillery has the IC rule.

I know most other people tend to think that increasing the weapon ranges of certain DE weapons would be wrong, and will never happen. I will probably have to accept that even though I do not like the idea. However slightly larger formations will last longer, and could hold out to either make the enemy try harder to kill them off (ignoring other formations), or they could survive and then grab an objective at the end of the game.

I would like to clarify how many shots a Vessel of pain has with its single phantom lance compared to the Torments 2 x Phantom lances. Compare the proposed stats to the current list stats. The current Tormentor has 2 phantom lances which each shoot 1 shot, but the proposed changes gives each weapon 2 shots. The current Vessel of Pain has 2 phantom lances which each one shooting a single shot, while the proposed changes has it armed with a single phantom Lance that shoots 2 shots. Is this intentional that the Tormentor now gets twice the fire power with its ranged range 45cm MW 3+ (TK 1) weapons?

Those are the only things I can see that need to be addressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Hey Deb,
Thanks for your feedback. Your perspective and playtesting is always valued.
1. Agree. limiting the bop to replacing units is a better option.
2. I dont think the shooting from transport needs to be included. Happy to upgrade inf to 6+ save though. The weakness of the LV status is overcome with the 4+ save which allows for great survivability against normal shooting. If shooting from transports was to be reintroduced i would think the raider would need to be 5+ save in order to balance it.
3. Love the upgrade option to 3 strong for razor wing.
4.cool. agreed
5. Great.
6. Happy to reintroduce the desolator but it would need to return to 125 points.
7. Yeah i think get are balanced at 8 strong.
8.cool.
9.i agree and suit the unstructured flexible kabal nature. Concerned that 8 scourges with 2 x 4+ff may be too strong. But happy to playtest.
10. No chance of weapon increases. Especially with the move shoot move rule in place.
11. Tormentor should be 2x phantom lance with 2xmw3 tk1 shots.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:51 am 
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As to 11. Does this "Tormentor should be 2x phantom lance with 2xmw3 tk1 shots" mean the Tormentor has 2 shots per Phantom Lance, or only a single shot per weapon?

If only 1 shot per phantom lance, does this mean the Vessel of Pain has will have to get its stat line corrected as well? Currently you have it armed with a single Phantom Lance that puts out 2 shot per Phantom the lance. In the current legal list. it has it armed with 2 phantom lances each with 1 shot.

In regards to 9. "Concerned that 8 scourges with 2 x 4+ff may be too strong." I did not know Scourges could roll 2 dice for their FF attacks. Your playtest list has their FF set a 3+ with a 5+ save - both of which are 1 better than the current legal list. As to their short ranged 30cm Dark Lance, they only put out 1 shot at AT5+ Lance, so I am not sure where the 2 shots per stand comes from?

In number 2, you mention giving warriors a 6+save. This would help compensate for the low formation sizes kalabite warriors get, and the fact that their transports are easily shot out from under them. Unfortunately the warriors main weapon has such poor range, that I never use their Splinter cannon. Once I am in 15cm - the range of the Splinter cannon which only hits infantry on a 5+, I am already attempting to FF/engage the enemy, or support an engagement using a 4+ FF that can hurt tanks. Other very short ranged weapons used by say Fire Dragons, etc have other benefits like MW, or IC to tempt you to use them, rather than FF. The Splinter cannon does not. You may as well remove it, as I do not know anyone who would shoot an AP5+ weapon, instead of engaging the enemy in FF on a 4+ at the same range.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:52 am 
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Hey deb,
As previously posted the tormentor is as above. Which would bring it inline with the correct stats for the vop as listed in the reference sheet of the army list.

As previoulsy posted i am considering upgrading the scourges to 2x ff4+. It isnt in the reference sheet yet. Just a proposed change.

They still only get 1 AT shot.

Your warriors should always be shooting cause they are gettting in position to spt fire for your other engagements! Also allows them to put a bm on formations.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:00 pm 
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this list has now (finally) been added to Armyforge

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Thanks heaps KiC.
Sorry saw your pm too late.
Regards
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:03 pm 
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KiC, I have been checking out the army forge list, and a few things do not match the current test list.

Flotillas can only upgrade with a Dracon and up to 2 ravagers.

All formations that can take transport options can choose to purchase Barges, or upgrade to venoms, however you can only add 2 other upgrades to those formatoins that have more than one upgrade option. I.E, Syndicate, can choose the Haemonculi and ravagers, but not add on Warriors, Incubi, Wyches, Haemonculi, Dracon, Scourges an Ravagers. Only 2 of them could be purchased.

The Haemonculi upgrade is only 1 Haemonculi and 1 Grotesque for 100 points

Talos can take an additional 4 Talos, you have set it at max of 2 additional talos.

I added 3 raiders to a Haemonculi formation, then added 2 venoms. The program should have removed a Raiders to account for the venoms. I am not sure if army forge can do this though. I tried the Talos upgrade - this time for the Haemonculi, and it was still limited to 4 rather than 4.

The Syndicates are suppose to have a lot more upgrade options than they are allowed to on your list. They have access to like Warriors, Scourges, Incubi, Wyches, Dracon, Ravager as upgrades and the transport options like raiders, venoms and barges.

I am not sure what can be done, most of it will be common sense to work around to get it like Jim's 1.0 test list. We can just select the appropriate items from the list. Some lists do not have all the upgrades available, or you can only get some of the units like 2 talos instead of up to 4. This could be addressed, to bring it in line with this current version of the test list.

It will probably change again once Jim decides it needs a few tweaks and more testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Deb wrote:
KiC, I have been checking out the army forge list, and a few things do not match the current test list.


thanks for taking the time, next time it's probably pertinent to post up corrections in the main armyforge thread, I just posted the link here for those who don't check the armyforge thread :)

Quote:
Flotillas can only upgrade with a Dracon and up to 2 ravagers.


Fixed, basically I used the EUK file as a basis and they have the order reversed so all the upgrades that the syndicate can take were actually added to the flotilla

Quote:
All formations that can take transport options can choose to purchase Barges, or upgrade to venoms, however you can only add 2 other upgrades to those formatoins that have more than one upgrade option. I.E, Syndicate, can choose the Haemonculi and ravagers, but not add on Warriors, Incubi, Wyches, Haemonculi, Dracon, Scourges an Ravagers. Only 2 of them could be purchased.


there is no easy, elegant way to fix this in armyforge, as some upgrades like talos can be 1-4, you'd need to create a separate option for each configuration to limit it effectively which creates lots of clutter and makes the list hard to read, I'll add a note reinforcing the 2 upgrades per formation rule

Quote:
The Haemonculi upgrade is only 1 Haemonculi and 1 Grotesque for 100 points


Fixed

Quote:
Talos can take an additional 4 Talos, you have set it at max of 2 additional talos.


fixed

Quote:
I added 3 raiders to a Haemonculi formation, then added 2 venoms. The program should have removed a Raiders to account for the venoms. I am not sure if army forge can do this though. I tried the Talos upgrade - this time for the Haemonculi, and it was still limited to 4 rather than 4.


I've added the restriction for 3 raider/2xvenom upgrades, it was set to 4 which is a hangover from the EUK version, I assume you meant 2 rather than 4 on the Haemonculi formation? this should be covered by the fixing of the talos upgrade above

Quote:
The Syndicates are suppose to have a lot more upgrade options than they are allowed to on your list. They have access to like Warriors, Scourges, Incubi, Wyches, Dracon, Ravager as upgrades and the transport options like raiders, venoms and barges.


should be correct now?

Quote:
I am not sure what can be done, most of it will be common sense to work around to get it like Jim's 1.0 test list. We can just select the appropriate items from the list. Some lists do not have all the upgrades available, or you can only get some of the units like 2 talos instead of up to 4. This could be addressed, to bring it in line with this current version of the test list.

It will probably change again once Jim decides it needs a few tweaks and more testing.


probably, but it will be easier to change the correct version of the list rather than fixing bugs from V1.0 AND updating to the new version :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:47 pm 
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V1.1 uploaded on the first post.
Thanks very much for your efforts KiC!
Cheers,
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:51 am 
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I played 2 games, 1 on Friday, the second today (Saturday). The first was DE 1.1 vs Black Legion

Test games DE list 2017 1.1 vs Black Legion

List 8 – 10 formations (43 Units)
50 points 50 Points – Portable Wraithgate
1025 Points
375 Points – Coterie – Archon, 4 Incubi Units, 1 Raiders, 2 Venoms,
325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
325 Points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
1225 Points
250 – Reavers – Sucubus, 6 Reaver Units
250 – Reavers – Sucubus, 6 Reaver Units
250 – Scourges – 6 Scourges
225 – Talos - 4 Talos
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
700 points
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan [BTS]
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings

Black Legion – 13th Black Crusade – 9 formations incl Summoned Daemons (74 units)
Retinues – 700
410 – Retinue – Warlord, 8 Chaos Marines, 4 Noise Marines, 6 Rhinos, Daemonic Pact
340 – Retinue – Chaos Lord, 8 Chaos Marines, 4 Rhinos, Daemonic Pact
Elites – 825
825 – Terminators – Sorceror Lord, 4 Terminators, 4 Landraiders, 3 Defilers, Daemonic Pact
Support – 1040
350 – Chaos Bikes – Lord, 8 x Chaos Bikes, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer
275 – Defller Assault Pack – 4 Defilers
340 – Raptor Cult – Chaos Lord – 8 x Raptors, Daemonic Pact
1/3 Titans and aircraft – 400
200 – Hellblades – 3 x Hellblades
200 – Hellblades – 3 x Hellblades
Daemons – 30
135 – 2 x lesser daemons (+ 5 more from daemonic pacts).

The second was DE 1.1 vs Squats 6.1

New Squat 1.61 list vs Dark Eldar 2017 1.1

DE 3000 points – 9 formations, 41 units
wraithgate
50 points
50 points – Portable Wraithgate
1225 points
575 points – Coterie – Archon, 6 Incubi, 2 Warriors, 2 Barge of Pleasure, [BTS]
325 points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
325 points – Flotilla – Dracon, 5 Ravagers
1025 points
250 points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers
250 points – Reavers – Succubus, 6 Reavers
250 points – Heavy Barge – 1 Vessel of Pain
275 points – Talos – 5 Talos
700 points
500 Points – Titan – 1 Tormentor Titan
200 Points – Razorwings – 2 Razorwings

VS

List 2 – 3000 Points – 9 Formations, 67 Units
Brotherhood Formations – 900 Points
325 Points – Warrior Brotherhood – 1 x Warlord, 1 x Hearthguard, 9 x Warrior Units, 6 Rhinos
275 Points – Berserker Brotherhood – 1 x Hearthguard, 9 x Berserker Units, 5 x Termites
300 Points – Thunderers – 4 Thunderer Units, 2 Warrior Units, 2 Thunderfires
Support Formations – 1250 points
225 Points – Biker Guild – I x Guildmaster, 3 x Guild Trikes, 4 x Guild Bike Units
225 Points – Biker Guild – I x Guildmaster, 3 x Guild Trikes, 4 x Guild Bike Units
300 Points – Iron Eagle – 6 x Iron Eagle Gyrocopters
500 Points – 2 x Overlord Airships with1 upgraded with a Flak AA cannon
War Engines – 850 points
550 points – Cyclops + Flak turret + Living Ancestor [BTS]
300 points – 2 Goliath Mega Cannon


In the game against Black Legion, it was close, 1: 1 in turn 3, and finally 2:0 win for DE with T&H and Blitz in turn 4.

In the game with the Squats, the DE won at the end of turn 3, 4:0 with BTS, T&H, DTF and Blitz. If the Squats SC warrior brotherhood had not broken that turn, subsequently rallying, they would also have stopped DTF.

I have lots of Pictures, which need to be sorted and battle reports done. Needles to say, I worked out a few things. When facing off against armies that are also close combat/ Fire Fight orientated, Gang up and then do not allow the enemy to be able to gang up on too many of your formations that have been in engagements this turn, as blast markers and combat losses will make the next battle harder.

When facing off against a ranged enemy like the Squats, use cover a lot (which did not help too much against the indirect attacks), however the shadow fields did lessen the overall losses. Also get in close and overwhelm the enemy in close assault engagements. I may have had fewer units, but by turn 3 I had more units/formations than the Squats did.

The Dark Eldar list seems a lot more balanced now that you have fixed the transport/ barges problem up. I have found that even though The character upgrades cost 25 points more, the ability to have both leader and inspiring does make the difference in engagements. Thus if I have 3 formations in the engagement each with an inspiring character that survives, that is +3 to the combat results.

Since DE use a combination of shooting to weaken enemy, break them, or add blast markers before assaulting, the inspiring ability helps a lot (even at 50 points a character). Also having lots of characters means that I can allocate any of them the portable wraithgate, not just the Archon. If his/her formation is getting shot up (usually the case), the succubus in the Reaver formation (previously allocated) can move up throw the PW, and then retain to bring out the Talos to assault an enemy formation causing me lots of grief.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:01 pm 
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When i read it the portable gate can pop out of any character but jim's been playing it you have to assign it to a character at the start of the game.

Might just wana check that with him.


Also how good it the tormentor titan. 6 shields -1 to hit only 4 DC but amazing in assaults. AA macro weapons coming out his but and 35 move with jet packs :O

the only weakness is the 4 dc, 4 blasts and his/shes broken.

Does anyone know of any good formation to take this thing down? multi assault for jut FF, maybe tau or eldar with the ranged shooting.

I played against 2 the other night and it was brutal.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:36 pm 
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You miss understood me. I was saying that any character can be assigned the portable wraithgate at the beginning of the game. You do not need to tell your opponent, just record it before the game starts. Since the Archon is generally the one you would think would get it, he/she might be shot at (sniper skill) the most. However if a Dracon, or Succubus has been allocated, you might get the PW thrown before your opponent can guess who has been secretly allocated it.

As to the Tormentor, yes it does break easily. Especially if part of a larger combined assault, where other units are killed off, and the DE lose the engagement. Thankfully it is Fearless.

As to playing 2 of them. It means you only have 2000 points to get more formations for activations, and if you do not get a larger cost formation, then you give the enemy 2 BTS to target. Fixing that dilemma means 3 formations taking up over 1/2 of your army.

I found that Eldar Scorpions can out range it, shoot it a lot and bring down their shields. Lots of Indirect artillery also helps as the Sustained fire cancels the cover save. If you use IC weapons, they also ignore the -1 to hit. An enemy force like Eldar with lots of Lance, MW and IC weapons, and lots of them, usually at longer ranges can take them out.

I have also found that if you keep your force mobile, even the Titans 35cm jump move can make it hard for it to lock enemy in place. You can then pick on the DE weaker/ more brittle formations like Reavers, Ravagers, Raiders, Venoms and infantry. Especially when there are a lot of LV in the DE list.

The abundance of 50 point inspiring leaders does work well to the DE theme of assaults, mobile FF, hit and run attacks to cause BM really well. The Archon seems to be the only commander/Supreme commander, so it is harder to organise getting 2 or more formations to assault an enemy formation. You have to organise clipping assaults, or use the Archon.

I like the direction the list is going.

Those 6 shields can be taken down fairly quickly. I lost them all in one game over 2 rounds of enemy shooting at the Tormentor.

A decent list to face off against DE might be AMTL, or a Skitarri force with Titans, and some artillery. As a De player you would have to move rapidly up close, shoot a lot to cause BM, and then out number the enemy in CC/FF to kill them off. Perhaps another extremely close combat orientated army with fast units/ transports, and maybe some skimmers. Perhaps some of the Chaos lists could put up a fight. IN my game with Black Legion vs DE, the DE only won in turn 4 2:0. In turn 3 it was 1:1, and most of the DE forces were below 1/2 strength, or destroyed by the turn 4 . The CC/FF was brutal. over 6 engagements in that game.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:33 am 
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@ Norto

I have been perusing the various army lists, their strengths and abilities. There are 2 armies that the Dark Eldar 1.1 will have a hard time dealing with. They are Feral Orks, and Tyranids.

Nids have enough artillery, even low BP artillery to cause the Tormentors, and even the other standard DE units to lose shields, or break. They get Synapse, and can bring lost units back from the dead. They can regenerate lost DC from their war engines. They have tunnellers, are really nasty in close combat, and there units are quite cheap compared to units in other armies. Many of there units are fearless, have invulnerable saves and some have decent FF values.

Feral Orks get lots of Orkasauraus WE transports, each with 6 DC. These carry a lot of infantry, and you can add more units to the formation. They get one artillery formation, the steam gargant, however you can make it a mega mob, and have 3 gargants each putting out 4BP. 12BP can destroy even a spread out formation like a DE flotilla or a force with raider and venom transports. The boar boyz are always good for taking isolated objectives, they do have ground based AA - steam gargants. They have an abundance of cheap units that can get the Orkasauraus as a dedicated WE transport - Wild Boyz, Warbands, and their size and cost can be increased to make them out last and out engage a DE list. Their ramshackle junkatrukks (LV) are easily destroyed, but they carry a single ork unit each, allow the ork unit to shoot 30cm with AP6+/AT6+, which the proposed DE warriors and their LV venom and raider transports will not be able to do.

Other Ork lists also have similar qualities, and needs to rely on other transports, but these lists also have aircraft, flakk trukks, more gargants, and many other mobz that can make a DE player cringe.

Perhaps it is time to build an Ork or Tyranid list.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Eldar Army List 2017
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:44 am 
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Artillery would be wasted shooting at the tormentor, you would get 2 shots on 5s to try and strip 6 shields.

Im wondering if the AA should be 6+ or/and as an upgrade. to push it over the 500 points and make it 1 per 3k game.

Just feels it has a bit going for it. Id consider it better then 2 revenants. I was thinking they were on about on par but the tormentor as TK shots. 4 of them. Just my point of view from a game is. It hard to shoot and kill it (the -1 and shields), its hard to assault it (the 3 x TK 3+ CCs) and its hard to assault FF it (the 6 shields on this guy).

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