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Kabal of Pain Transport options

 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Nah, you can have 6 units in a Slavebringer and it would be legitimate. It must be a single formation though since the Slavebringer is originally assigned to one formation, despite being an independent transport.


Hi Mosc!

I'd like to ask, would this also be true for Barges of pleasure. What I mean is can I take two Barges to transport a 6 warrior units formation? It's the BTS I've been planing :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:22 am 
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Yup. What you could not do is take a 4 Incubi formation and two Barges. Since the formation is 6 strong, they can put there feet up. This seems to be consistent with the ruling that Space Marines Tacticals could take 3 Rhinos and a Razorback, since the Razorback was purchased while the Rhinos were free. Unless this ruling was flipped along the way without me knowing it...

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:48 pm 
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That's still how it works for the SM. You buy the Razorbacks (or Land Raiders) and then get free Rhinos to carry the rest. I don't think that directly translates to the DE though, as the Barge is a transport option and not an upgrade (like the RB or LR). But if Mosc says it's good to go, it's good to go. Might be worth a FAQ though.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:58 pm 
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The theme is pretty consistent: you buy the transport you want, then use the free transports to fill in the blanks. It's close enough. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:08 am 
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Can you take 3 raiders as transports for say Haemonculi Coven (2 Haemonculi, 4 Grotesques), add in 2 Perditors (war engines), send them in on foot so to speak , and perhaps add in 2 Talos also on foot?

Do I have to drop the 3 Raiders, or can I take them and leave the rest on foot?

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:16 pm 
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Apologies for the delayed reply.
Deb wrote:
Can you take 3 raiders as transports for say Haemonculi Coven (2 Haemonculi, 4 Grotesques), add in 2 Perditors (war engines), send them in on foot so to speak , and perhaps add in 2 Talos also on foot?

Do I have to drop the 3 Raiders, or can I take them and leave the rest on foot?
Upgrades are optional, so you do not have to take transport if you don't want to. However the foot note in the list specifies that, if you do take transport it must carry the entire formation including any upgrades. Here, the Perditors and Talos are armoured vehicles that cannot be carried by any of the transport options, so effectively you must choose either
  • to put the basic infantry formation and Haemonculi / Sybanite upgrades in the desired transport, OR
  • to leave all the infantry on foot and take Perditor / Talos upgrades.

(Note, if you take a Slavebringer, it must be used to deploy the formation that it was purchased for. Once those troops have been landed on the battlefield, the Slavebringer can then be used to transport other infantry off-table to redeploy them elsewhere.)

Also, did you get my latest PM?


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:40 am 
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Ginger Wrote:

Upgrades are optional, so you do not have to take transport if you don't want to. However the foot note in the list specifies that, if you do take transport it must carry the entire formation including any upgrades. Here, the Perditors and Talos are armoured vehicles that cannot be carried by any of the transport options, so effectively you must choose either

to put the basic infantry formation and Haemonculi / Sybanite upgrades in the desired transport, OR
to leave all the infantry on foot and take Perditor / Talos upgrades.



Damn, this means I can not take a Ravager upgrade to bolster a Kalabite Syndicate which I had intended to mount in Raiders, as the Raiders can not transport the Ravager.

This also means I can not take any Hunter AA tanks which are armoured vehicles as upgrades to the Terminator or tactical squads in my White Scars army and also take Rhino /landraider transports, as the Hunters can not fit into the Rhinos or landraiders. I will either take the Hunters, or drop the transports.

This must affect so many armies as I am sure there are a lot of lists that have exactly the same wording.

Perhaps they can make a FAQ to address this for the armies, so other would not be as confused as I was. I thought I could take the Raiders, the Haemonculi, Grotesques, the have the Talos Armoured vehicles, and the Talos War Engines (armoured vehicle walkers) walk beside the raiders.

I will have to let one of my mates know about this, as I saw in a list he has submitted for a tournament, that he has attached a dreadnought and a vindicator to his devastator squad which has rhino transports. He may have to just foot slog it along side the dreddie and vindie rather than ride in the Rhinos. The dreadnought and vindicator can not fit into his Rhinos.

Some of these rules can be a little confusing.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:23 pm 
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huh?? You are not understanding what they are saying I think. Of course you can take hunters with tactical squads in rhinos!

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:03 pm 
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None of the transport special rules infer that you have to transport units that aren't transportable in order to take transports at all.

You can add a Ravager to a Raider born formation, same goes for a Hunter to a Rhino/Land Raider/Razorback born formation.

The only place where you're limited is formations being transported in a WE. All units have to fit inside the same WE for that to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:13 pm 
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And to expand Dave's response, this definition is peculiar to the Dark Eldar list to ensure that the player chooses between mobility and firepower (the Raider is a LV not WE, so is exempt from the WE rules quoted by Dave).

The Marine lists specify that certain units have the "with transport" option to carry 'the formation', the basic formation transported under 1.7.5 transport. A player might decide to add other upgrades eg Dreadnoughts which do not have that option, and yet still field the Rhinos for those units that can take them. Doing this would mean the formation is limited to 15cm moves by the Dreadnought until that is destroyed. Equally the player might decide to add a Hunter whilst taking the Rhinos, which prevents the player from using Drop Pods or the ThunderHawk to transport the entire formation though it can be carried in a Landing Craft.

The convention of specifying Transport as an upgrade simplifies the presentation of the list and is linked to the basic formation, so does not imply including upgrades - though the list is usually structured or presented to make transport an alternative to other upgrades.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:37 pm 
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So explain Gingers response. I ask this because the Talos are an armoured vehicle (walker similar to a Dreadnought. The Perditors are a War Engine that is not expected to be transported.

The wording in the Dark Eldars transport options

Any Dark Eldar formation that includes “plus transport”
may choose from the Dark Eldar Transport section. You
may only take as many transport units as are required to
carry the entire formation, including upgrades, with no
extra spaces if possible. You may select no transport at all
if desired.

and

The Space Marines are a highly mobile army. Because of
this the points cost of a detachment usually includes
enough transport vehicles to transport it and any upgrades
that have been taken. The number of vehicles will always
be the minimum needed to carry the formation

Both are saying and implying as far as I can see, that you do not take EXTRA transports. Just enough for the Detachment and any upgrades / Formation including upgrades.

I know that if I take Talos and Perditors, that they will slow the formation down to 15cm until those slower units are destroyed. The likelihood is that the Raiders will be destroyed before the Talos/Perditors as they are not fearless.

Perhaps a rewrite of the "transport options", or a FAQ to show that the transport options only refers to transportable upgrades, and that units like Talos, Dreadnoughts, Hunters, Raiders and Perdirors are not included as part of this.

I have gone through the NetEA rules and they do not specifically say you can not take transports in a formation if you include a war engine that is an upgrade to the formation.

The Dark Eldar transport option rules which I have read and re-read do not say or infer or state that upgrades that can not be transported like Talos and Perditors, or in the Space Marines case Dreadnoughts or hunters force the formation to not be able to take any transports at all. In Fact all it says is that you have to include enough transport to transport all the units in the formation and upgrades without any extra spaces if possible.

To me this refers to infantry like added wyches or Warp beasts. In the case of the Dark Eldar Haemonculi coven, even the upgrade infantry have and transport in their description.

All I can see that is limiting is that the transport options section limits you to a maximum of 4 raiders, or 2 barges of pleasure, or 1 slavebringer assault boat. The rules also limit you to a maximum of 8 infantry in any formation. Formations like the Coterie, the Syndicate, and the Wyches have so many infantry upgrade options that if you took them all, you would have some on foot, and you would also exceed the 8 infantry limit. In this case you purchase only enough upgrades to take it to a maximum of 8 infantry.

Another thing I can see is that in the Kabal Coterie and Syndicate, include the option for upgrading scourges to the formation. Scourges are jump infantry and do not get a transport option.

In a similar manner to the Eldar Aspect warriors and their ability to mix and match units like Dire Avengers and Dark Reapers that get transports like Wave Serpents, and Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks that can not travel in those transports, they allow you to include enough transports for only those units that are transportable.

In the Dark Eldar list, the Kabal Syndicate and Coterie have the option to add 2 Mandrakes as an upgrade. They can not take transports as part of their upgrade, but are transportable in raiders, Slavebringers ad Barges of Pleasure due to a special rule for them in the raiders rules that allows for the Mandrakes to just hop onto the already full transport and 1 unit per raider.

The Warp Beast upgrade is another case all together where the Raiders can not transport the warp beast as part of their rules. If I wanted a Wych formation to take the Warp Beast upgrade, and also have transports, I would have to take a 2 Barges of Pleasure of a Slavebringer Assault boat.

The Dark Eldar rules, have been written in a way that some may misinterpret, and could use the rules to limit the Dark Eldar. I hope that the developer of the new Dark Eldar list looks at this to account for the many points of view and the fact that people see things differently. A sentence or paragraph of text (rules) can be understood to mean one thing by a person, and another thing by another person. Each would think they are correct, and if you checked it out each would seen to have a valid point for their interpretation. We need the rules to be able to reduce the likelihood of people have different interpretations of the rules. Perhaps include examples in those boxed off text paragraphs to explain things better.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:54 pm 
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I don't understand your confusion here, and frankly parsing that wall of text is more than I'm willing to do on a Friday afternoon.

You're saying "upgrades that cannot be transported force a formation to go without transports", but asking for a FAQ because that may be misinterpreted? Again, the DE transport rule doesn't infer that you have to transport the upgrades that can't be transported. Stating something like that makes for some overly wordy rules. Would you expect the rule to say you don't have to transport Raiders too, as they're upgrades?

It's quite a jump in reasoning to assume that because a unit can't be transported you can't take the transport. I think most people (given how long these transport rules have been around) think "oh, this unit can't be transported so I don't get a free X to transport it".

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:17 pm 
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You misinterpreted my post. I was trying to get clarification on Gingers reply

Upgrades are optional, so you do not have to take transport if you don't want to. However the foot note in the list specifies that, if you do take transport it must carry the entire formation including any upgrades. Here, the Perditors and Talos are armoured vehicles that cannot be carried by any of the transport options, so effectively you must choose either

to put the basic infantry formation and Haemonculi / Sybanite upgrades in the desired transport, OR
to leave all the infantry on foot and take Perditor / Talos upgrades.

Ginger also said in a later post

And to expand Dave's response, this definition is peculiar to the Dark Eldar list to ensure that the player chooses between mobility and firepower (the Raider is a LV not WE, so is exempt from the WE rules quoted by Dave).

The Marine lists specify that certain units have the "with transport" option to carry 'the formation', the basic formation transported under 1.7.5 transport. A player might decide to add other upgrades eg Dreadnoughts which do not have that option, and yet still field the Rhinos for those units that can take them. Doing this would mean the formation is limited to 15cm moves by the Dreadnought until that is destroyed. Equally the player might decide to add a Hunter whilst taking the Rhinos, which prevents the player from using Drop Pods or the ThunderHawk to transport the entire formation though it can be carried in a Landing Craft.

The convention of specifying Transport as an upgrade simplifies the presentation of the list and is linked to the basic formation, so does not imply including upgrades - though the list is usually structured or presented to make transport an alternative to other upgrades.

However after reading the rules for Dark Eldar's transport rules I still believe I can take the Talos, the Perditors and the raider transports for my Haemonculi Coven. It does not say I have to choose between taking the raider transports or taking the Perditors and Talos for that formation.

I am not saying that because a single unit in a formation can not be transported it forces the entire formation to not take transports. I am arguing that this is not the case. The wall of text as you put it, was to give you rule examples from the DE list and other lists as to why I think this.

Ginger is the one who said that if I take a Perditor or Talos in my Grotesque formation, then I have to drop the Raiders.

By Gingers reasoning, I would have to choose to either take a Ravager in a Syndicate formation and drop the Raiders, or leave the Ravager out. Similar reasoning if I added the Reaver Jetbike (mounted infantry) to a Wych cult mounted in Raiders. Raiders can not transport Ravagers or Reaver Jetbikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:47 am 
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Dude use the quote function please when quoting. Like Dave that's a wall of text I don't care to try and parse while tired and hungry.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:56 am 
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My reply got lost somehow. Please forgive any confusion caused.

The DE list does allow you to take upgrades and transport, but the list specific transport rule restricts the upgrades that can be taken when also taking transport. Note Talos can be transported in the Slavebringer, but take up two spaces per unit.

Other lists follow the normal transport rules and restrictions but are usually presented in a way that gives the player the choice between upgrades OR transport (e.g. Eldar lists).

Marine lists differ by including transport in the basic formation costs, allowing the player to discard the vehicles as appropriate. Their upgrades are mostly characters or vehicle options which have no impact on the transport rules. The exception is the Dreadnought upgrade, which can still be transported in Drop pods. Whether taking Dreadnoughts prohibits the formation to take Rhinos is a good question - for a different thread ;)


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