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Kabal of Pain Transport options

 Post subject: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Hello,
I'm trying to incooperate the Kabal List into my army generator - but the transport rule confuses me.

For one The Talos isn't listed as an allowed cargo choice, but it is mentioned to be the same load as 2 infantry units. So what has been forgotten ? The Talos entry in the allowed cargo list, or the deletion of the Talos is 2 infantry loads entry ?

I understand that I can choose to not take transport.

Is the transport list mutual exclusive ?
I.e. if I have 6 units do I have to take 2 Barges or can I choose a Raider and a Barge ?
I assume not, but an confirmation would be nice.

When I take transport, do I have to choose my transport to be able to carry all transportable units ?
I.e. When I have 4 Incubis - may I take only 1 Raider or do I have to take 2 Raiders ?
If I want to transport a Coven with Talos, will I have to take a Slavebringer or no transport at all, because no other transport can carry a Talos ?
I hope so, because otherwise this will be more of an Fire Support, Break Point increase option than an transport option.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:35 pm 
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What are you looking at? The Dark Eldar list in the Tournament Pack? Talos can only fit in Slavebringers, and in there they're listed as taking up two slots.

I'm not sure what Mosc's intention was with the transports. Because it doesn't say that you need to select all the same thing I'd assume you could take both Barges and Raiders so long as you don't take more than what's needed to transport the entire formation. However, you still need to take enough to transport the entire formation. So no 4 Incubi, 1 Raider situations.

If you choose to take a Talos with a Coven then your only transport options would be the Slavebringer or no transport, as like you say nothing else can transport the Talos and "you may only take as many transport units as are required to carry the entire formation".

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:48 pm 
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I'm looking at the army list compendium 2012-08-09.

There are only a "none" and a "no more than needed" conditions, but there is no "enough to carry all" condition.

And while I'd say that the "take any combination" is implied, I do not see an inherent implication of "take enough to carry all".

It would be nice to hear from the "horse mouth" what the intention is.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:48 am 
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Take a look at the Tournament Pack. Mosc OKed that language back in August.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:06 am 
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Thanks Dave,
but the wording in both documents is the same - so this doesn't answer my question.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:05 am 
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brumbaer wrote:
Hello,
I'm trying to incooperate the Kabal List into my army generator - but the transport rule confuses me.

For one The Talos isn't listed as an allowed cargo choice, but it is mentioned to be the same load as 2 infantry units. So what has been forgotten ? The Talos entry in the allowed cargo list, or the deletion of the Talos is 2 infantry loads entry ?

I understand that I can choose to not take transport.

Is the transport list mutual exclusive ?
I.e. if I have 6 units do I have to take 2 Barges or can I choose a Raider and a Barge ?
I assume not, but an confirmation would be nice.

When I take transport, do I have to choose my transport to be able to carry all transportable units ?
I.e. When I have 4 Incubis - may I take only 1 Raider or do I have to take 2 Raiders ?
If I want to transport a Coven with Talos, will I have to take a Slavebringer or no transport at all, because no other transport can carry a Talos ?
I hope so, because otherwise this will be more of an Fire Support, Break Point increase option than an transport option.


You can mix and match Barges and Raiders as you see fit. Because of the additions you can get a motley set of units coasting together. A Warrior formation of 6 plus 2 Reavers could have a Barge and a Raider for transports; then add a Ravager for 50 points and that is quite the variety.

4 Incubi must take two Raiders or one Barge because the Raider can only carry 2 units.

The Talos can only be carried in Slavebringers.

Slavebringers, because of their aircraft status, are exclusive transports.

I hope I answered your questions properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:30 am 
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Thank you for your answer, but I'm just not sure.

Reading between the lines, if I take transport I have to take enough transport to carry all units. That is transportable units.

This means that I can not take an Haemunculi Coven plus two Talos or both a single Talos and an Haemonculi upgrade, because this would count as 10 entries and the Slavebringer can carry only 8.

If I have a Kabal Syndicate with a Scourges upgrade I must at least take one Barge, because Raiders can't transport
Scourges and so on.

Is this correct ?

Talos count as 2 infantry for transport - do they count also as 2 infantry for the no more than 8 infantry units limit ?
I assume not, but as you open a can of worms with this special Talos rule, i'd better ask.

Thanks for your help and patience.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:42 pm 
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brumbaer wrote:
Reading between the lines, if I take transport I have to take enough transport to carry all units. That is transportable units.


I would agree with that.

Quote:
This means that I can not take an Haemunculi Coven plus two Talos or both a single Talos and an Haemonculi upgrade, because this would count as 10 entries and the Slavebringer can carry only 8.


This is also correct.

Quote:
If I have a Kabal Syndicate with a Scourges upgrade I must at least take one Barge, because Raiders can't transport. Scourges...


You still need to transport the Syndicate (6 strong). In this case you could bring 1 Barge (4), 1 Raider (2), and two Scourges. You could also take 3 Raiders (2 each) and two Scourges.

You have everything correct. I think the problem isn’t the rule but some level of frustration that you aren’t able to build the list that you would like to see on the board.

The reason we made these limitations is because we wanted the Dark Eldar to play less like an army and more like a raiding party. The backbone of the army is organized into these light raiding groups and as such the player is forced to coordinate attacks rather than stand toe to toe with an actual army.

There are ways of transporting larger forces to the other side of the board – the Executor will bring whatever you need, including War Engines. This beast has transportation as its main function. The armament falls below where you would expect a 750 point war engine to be; this is because the transported units are the real weapon. Having Dark Eldar close safely with the enemy is a major advantage.

In the belly of this beast you can technically put one of the toughest non-titan formations in Epic; a fully reinforced Haemonculi Coven. 3 Haemonculi + 1 Sybarite, 5 Grotesques, 2 Talos, and 2 Perditors. The entire formation is fearless and as lethal as they come. It will also cost you 825 points! :D That formation will fit inside an Executor with room to spare, so if you want to spend half your standard tourney points (3000) on two formations, that is entirely up to you. Obviously something like that will be relegated to larger games of 5000 points or special scenarios.

Quote:
Talos count as 2 infantry for transport - do they count also as 2 infantry for the no more than 8 infantry units limit ?
I assume not, but as you open a can of worms with this special Talos rule, i'd better ask.

Thanks for your help and patience.


No, the Talos aren’t infantry so they do not count toward the “only 8 infantry” allotment. That statement is not tied to the transport rule and is only there to limit the size of the formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:31 pm 
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I do no not have a Kabal Army so I'm purely talking mechanics, neither sense nor sensibility of choices.

I will use the following rules to validate the transport options - I hope this reflects what you intended:

You can choose to have no transport at all.

If you choose to have transport, it must consist of
a single Slavebringer or
a combination of Barges and/or Raiders.

If you choose a single Slavebringer.
all units in the formation must fit onboard and 8 cargo slots (including Mandrakes) of the Slavebringer must be filled.

If you choose a combination of Raiders and/or Barges, you must choose a combination that
a) ensures that all infantry units with a speed below 30cm will be transported.
b) ensures that there is no unused transport slot (ignoring Mandrakes and Mandrake-slots). This should be possible as all upgrades and core units come in multiples of 2 and there will always be enough Mandrake slots for the two Mandrakes possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Nah, you can have 6 units in a Slavebringer and it would be legitimate. It must be a single formation though since the Slavebringer is originally assigned to one formation, despite being an independent transport. Mandrakes are in addition to the 8 transport slots as per the unit description.

Quote:
If you choose a combination of Raiders and/or Barges, you must choose a combination that
a) ensures that all infantry units with a speed below 30cm will be transported.
b) ensures that there is no unused transport slot (ignoring Mandrakes and Mandrake-slots). This should be possible as all upgrades and core units come in multiples of 2 and there will always be enough Mandrake slots for the two Mandrakes possible.


While the post above is IMO unnecessarily complicating the transport rule, it is logically sound. If you are doing this for a programming purpose, I can understand why you had to break it down as such.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Thanks again,
but somehow you alway manage to leave me in doubt.

Moscovian wrote:
Nah, you can have 6 units in a Slavebringer and it would be legitimate. It must be a single formation though since the Slavebringer is originally assigned to one formation, despite being an independent transport. Mandrakes are in addition to the 8 transport slots as per the unit description.

I understand that it's independent, I understand that you can have less than 8 units transported, I understand it's independent.
But you do not make clear what restrictions are imposed on the formation that it is bought with.

This could be
None - as only the formation really transported is restricted.
The formation must fit into the Slavebringer, even so it may never ever been transported by it.
The other possibilities are ruled out already.

Moscovian wrote:
Quote:
If you choose a combination of Raiders and/or Barges, you must choose a combination that
a) ensures that all infantry units with a speed below 30cm will be transported.
b) ensures that there is no unused transport slot (ignoring Mandrakes and Mandrake-slots). This should be possible as all upgrades and core units come in multiples of 2 and there will always be enough Mandrake slots for the two Mandrakes possible.


While the post above is IMO unnecessarily complicating the transport rule, it is logically sound. If you are doing this for a programming purpose, I can understand why you had to break it down as such.


I understand that it's not pretty, but it's something that doesn't leave much room to argue.
While the original rule is more like a general guideline :)

Ok the last version is:
You can choose to have no transport at all.

If you choose to have transport, it must consist of
a single Slavebringer or
a combination of Barges and/or Raiders.

If you choose a single Slavebringer.
all units in the formation must fit onboard.

If you choose a combination of Raiders and/or Barges, you must choose a combination that
a) ensures that all infantry units with a speed below 30cm will be transported.
b) ensures that there is no unused transport slot (ignoring Mandrakes and Mandrake-slots). This should be possible as all upgrades and core units come in multiples of 2 and there will always be enough Mandrake slots for the two Mandrakes possible.

Have a nice weekend


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:39 pm 
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The original rules were designed to fit on a single sheet of paper. Going about the process of removing all doubt of how a formation is to be built and instructing a player precisely how to build something is for FAQs and forums... Thus, here we are.

Quote:
The Slavebringer is an independent war engine that must be assigned to a specific Dark Eldar formation during army creation.


It is not possible for the formation to have a Slavebringer but not use it (at least for turn one) because of the above assignment. Can the wording be clearer? Sure. But not without destroying the formatting. And most people will look at that new wording and say, "I'm not stupid, you can just tell me the Slavebringer is assigned to a single formation and be done with it." There is something to be said for brevity.

But at least we hammered out the disconnect here.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:

<Snip>There is something to be said for brevity.<Snip>


I agree - when it isn't in the way of clarity.

The FAQ deals mainly with things caused by brevity - because the author thinks that the reader has the same background and associations as he has.
But this is not always the case as many discussions in diverse fora show.

But anyhow - even I understand now how transport selection is supposed to work and I'm thankful for that, because now I can continue implementing the list.

Thanks again and have a nice weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:52 pm 
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No problem. I'll tell you I had difficulty getting my head wrapped around Ork builds for the longest time. Everyone kept giving me a hard time because it was obvious to them - not so obvious to me. When I go back and look at it now it seems so clear, but I recall feeling very much the way you do about the Dark Eldar list.

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 Post subject: Re: Kabal of Pain Transport options
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:31 pm 
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+1 for clarity over brevity


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