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4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8

 Post subject: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:28 am 
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Giving Skitarri another try swapping sides this time with me using some proxies to represent them. Also Trying CLP formation at 600 rather than 500 and Golgotha at 550 rather than 500. Some initial thoughts in conclusion at bottom of BR. Cheers all. :)
https://hordesofthings.blogspot.com/201 ... s-tau.html

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:43 am 
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Thanks for the report, that was interesting to read. The dead count for turn 1 was good for seeing how things were going.

I also noticed the lack of infantry upgrades on the core formations, get me guessing on why, as they should be less organized than Marines and around IG, and more numerous than Tau and Eldar.
And by the way, Markconz, how the Gatling Blaster performed this time and last? They seem to be a good option at least in paper and against armies that advance and stay.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Thanks for the report, and congrats on having been the first effective use of an majoris I've seen in years. :)

About upgrades, skitarii intentionally don't have a lot of upgrades in the upgrades section. Instead, there are more taylored options available at the formation level.

Demi-century:
8x hypaspists, 2x secutors
5x hypaspists, 5x secutors
5x gun servitors, 5x secutors
5x gun servitors, 3x hypaspists, 2x secutors

Sagitarii:
5x gun servitors, 5x sagitarii
5x rapiers, 5x sagitarii

Upgrades are used to enhance the formations to provide trasport or add firepower or place the SC unit. Outside the magos, these aren't limited so a Demi-century could take a magos and 2x minorus if they wished. Conceptually this allows for a lot of flexibility in formation builds, but not in the tradtional sense you might find in IG. For example,

Demi-century:
8x Hypaspists
2x Secutors
3x Minorus

is a perfectly valid formation.


Experiment with things a bit and you'll see some varied lists for skitarii. I generally run a lot of the robots in my lists and relatively few minorus except to transport Sagitarii.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
And by the way, Markconz, how the Gatling Blaster performed this time and last? They seem to be a good option at least in paper and against armies that advance and stay.


Cheers yes they are good all around useful unit, got really picked on in this game, but fearless and all the shields mean they are difficult to finish off. Three were destroyed and they spent a lot of the game broken, but in turn 4 there were still 3 in working order which wiped out the Tau Supreme Commanders formation.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Thanks Vaaish. Artillery Majoris look pretty good to me, if match up dependent. If fearless is a recent addition to their stats that might be something that makes a big difference I think. Others potentially useful but even more matchup dependent. I think Andrew mentioned you were only allowed one in a list, but checking today that doesn't seem to be the case from what I can see.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:19 pm 
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I think I'd like to see the clp against some other armies before I say 100 is right. I kind of feel popcorn Tau was a perfect matchup for them. And yes, fearless was just added in the latest version.

On the majoris.... I'd originally wanted to limit it to 1 but everyone else wanted it to scale for high point games. And they have been a very rarely taken option since. I don't mind adding the limit.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:39 pm 
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I'm not sure popcorn Tau is perfect matchup, as it meant many times they were only hitting 3-4 units rather than a bigger formation where they'd wreck more stuff. But yes wanting to see more games is reasonable.

I like the idea of taking lots of Majoris so lack of limit doesn't bother me, though there might be fluff reasons for it I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:47 pm 
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Another thing with the Quake Cannon CLP formation is we were wondering what really would be a tough matchup for it where it would be vulnerable rather than something it is just better to leave alone and take the hits from. We thought a T-hawk full of termis would do the job, but that's a 600 point formation you're likely sacrificing (if including Chaplain which you usually would). Counterbattery fire is a waste of time with the shields, as are most other units that could pound them with direct fire. Any thoughts let us know.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:12 am 
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I consider Tau ideal as a matchup because they don't have a lot that can touch arty that likes to hide and they have a lot of infantry and LV which means the Quake/CLP gets to use the much better 4+ to hit. Having a lot of formations also makes it harder to spread out to mitigate the templates.

on the quake/CLP. It'll suffer against resilient troops and any armor. They don't work so well against crons and I suspect nids due to numbers and regen. They also don't work all that well if you spread out a lot and only catch two or three stands under it. They'll also have trouble with anything that can disrupt since it'll only take 6 BM to break them and if you marshall you can't use the CLP.

IG with Manticores could be nasty, so could Valkyries. Eldar of about any stripe give Skitarii a rough time. Marines would probably do pretty well with a termie formation teleporting in and smacking them.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:24 am 
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I didnt think disrupt works against void shields. Plus against teleporting termies I would have thought that a cheap formation would be sitting around it on overwatch all game.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:08 am 
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Disrupt should still work. It adds a BM for every hit instead of every kill. You still cause hits even if it goes to the VS. the idea being you stack up enough BM to break the formation even if you can't kill it out right.

As for the termies, minorus weapons are fixed forward. Drop in to the side or back and the minorus won't be able to hit you since it would have to turn to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:43 am 
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No check the FAQ Vaaish, and even if shields didn't stop disrupt, Manticores would at best only suppress 1 Ordinauts on average, and that's IF they got to fire first in a turn. But they don't even do that and other artillery is in the same boat.

Valkyries are terrible against them I think you meant vultures? If those can get LOF and a good round of shooting they are still only stripping shields and they only have one shot. Followed up with another attack it could do some damage of course.

Most of this game Andrew was already spread out maximally, and I wasn't going to waste firepower on LV because that would usually mean only hitting one of them due to their scout ability. Infantry I got a few times but even then they are 4+ to hit in cover or contacting an AV, and cheap targets that can afford the losses rather than something more expensive like marines. I don't think regenerating is something particularly useful against Ordinatus, as opposed to something that's particularly useful against everything in general but also something you pay for. I do think cheap hordes are probably better than more expensive formations, because the CLP is likely going to wreck one formation a turn whether or not it is cheap or expensive.

In that regard I'm not sure what you mean it will suffer against any armour, given it negates armour? If you mean reinforced armour, well it negates the reinforced which means an it will kill half of what it hits rather than a quarter (for example). So it is not bad against reinforced armour and anything it does kill will be worth proportionally more.

As Norto says trouble with teleporting termis is you can protect against that easily, you need the t-hawk (less than 5% chance of 6 AA shots shooting it down).

One other unit that should be good against them is the Manta with revised stats and extra TK shot, because it can planetfall. That's not exactly a commonly fielded formation though, especially at 3k. (Andrew has used it a bit even before it got extra TK shot however).

Most units I look at though, it is a really hard ask, and you're probably better ignoring the CLP formation and letting it blast something each turn while you concentrate on wrecking the rest of the Skitarri army, as Andrew did in this game. Maybe just throw a cheap BM on the CLP if you can somehow though to increase the chance of an activation and rally failure for it.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Huh. never saw that in the FAQ before.. I disagree with that ruling. The hit is made when you roll the dice and disrupt applies the BM at that point . That happens under 1.9.5 before allocation so VS not generating BM for hits taken shouldn't apply. At the point the VS negates the hit, the disrupt BM has already been placed.

Quote:
Valkyries are terrible against them I think you meant vultures? If those can get LOF and a good round of shooting they are still only stripping shields and they only have one shot. Followed up with another attack it could do some damage of course.


Ah sorry, yes. You'd probably want to strip shields with something else before running them in, but it should still hurt. Even a worse case suppression of one minorus halves the damage output of the unit.

Quote:
I don't think regenerating is something particularly useful against Ordinatus, as opposed to something that's particularly useful against everything in general but also something you pay for.


This is true. My experience with the quake+CLP has been that you kill maybe one to three stands a turn unless you can get a lucky shot on a concentrated formation. That's enough to be negated with regen and that effectively means a 600 point formation did zero impact against 300 point formation. More useful for tagging broken formations.

Quote:
In that regard I'm not sure what you mean it will suffer against any armour, given it negates armour?

Barrage weapons aren't that great at actually hitting armor. They will do a lot of damage if they do, but, you're probably hitting on a 5 or 6 and if you sustain to get a 4 you can't turn to get thing in your arc. Depending on placement that may or may not be an issue. It's been my experience that you don't catch many units under the templates and you have low odds of causing a hit making it poor at taking down armor.

Quote:
As Norto says trouble with teleporting termis is you can protect against that easily, you need the t-hawk (less than 5% chance of 6 AA shots shooting it down).

Yes and no. it's the same idea AMTL has used for years with scout screens. They do work to a degree because you may not get a first turn hit on your real target, but it;s likely you'll be able to break the formation or open a hole where you need.


Again, this is all from my own personal experience using and going against the unit in the past so YMMV.

Back to the topic at hand, it may be worth making the majoris weapons 0-1 and changing the Golgotha to 8bp, Macro-Weapon, Single Shot, Indirect Fire rather than having individual missles.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Third Phase Tau 6.8
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:54 pm 
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Markconz wrote:
Artillery Majoris look pretty good to me, . . . I think Andrew mentioned you were only allowed one in a list, but checking today that doesn't seem to be the case from what I can see.
Vaaish wrote:
On the majoris.... I'd originally wanted to limit it to 1 but everyone else wanted it to scale for high point games. And they have been a very rarely taken option since. I don't mind adding the limit.
Clearly mixed that up with the EpicUK list. I have no problem with multiple Ordinatus Majoris - expensive, need variation to ensure only one BTS, few people value them - take them, and they are probably killable.

Vaaish wrote:
I consider Tau ideal as a matchup because they don't have a lot that can touch arty that likes to hide and they have a lot of infantry and LV which means the Quake/CLP gets to use the much better 4+ to hit. Having a lot of formations also makes it harder to spread out to mitigate the templates.
Comparing to "standard" approved armies surely requires it being possible to combat with more infantry oriented armies. I was perhaps a bit too aggressive in Turn 1 and therefore clumped a little. Also will do some more anti-artillery dispersal drills before the next game.

Vaaish wrote:
I kind of feel popcorn Tau was a perfect matchup for them. And yes, fearless was just added in the latest version.
Will aim for less pop-corn next time. But also want to test the actual tools that are available to deal with the beasts. Rather than just use the avoid them - suck if up strategy. So we shall see, . . . . Planning commences. Any suggestions from sub-commanders, or distant higher ranks, ethereal council, . . .


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