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Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes

 Post subject: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:43 pm 
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Codex Astartes (NetEA Tournament Pack 2015)
==================================================

DEVASTATOR [250]
4 Devastators, Rhinos

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Landspeeder

LAND SPEEDER [220]
3 Tornado, 2 Typhoon

SCOUT [175]
4 Scouts, Rhinos, 2 Snipers

TACTICAL [450]
6 Tacticals, Supreme Commander, Hunter, Rhinos

TACTICAL [375]
6 Tacticals, Chaplain, Dreadnought

TERMINATOR [350]
4 Terminators

THUNDERHAWK [200]

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [175]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [175]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [175]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

PREDATOR [250]
4 Annihilator



Necron Sautekh Legion
==================================================

TOMB COMPLEX [75]

WARRIOR PHALANX [375]
6 Sautekh Warrior unit, Necron Overlord, 2 Tomb Spyder

IMMORTAL PHALANX [275]
Necron Lord, 6 Immortal units

IMMORTAL PHALANX [275]
Necron Lord, 6 Immortal units

MONOLITH MANIPLE [175]
2 Monolith

MONOLITH MANIPLE [175]
2 Monolith

MONOLITH MANIPLE [175]
2 Monolith

VENATOR MANIPLE [200]
6 Flayed Ones units

EQUES MANIPLE [325]
3 Destroyer, 3 Heavy Destroyer, Necron Lord

BLADE MANIPLE [200]
6 Tomb Blade units

PYLON [200]
Pylon

PYLON [200]
Pylon

NIGHT SCYTHES [175]
2 Night Scythes

NIGHT SCYTHES [175]
2 Night Scythes





Necrons Teleport everything with no blasts (if only i had a clue what i was doing)

Turn 1
Marines win the roll off
Marines - Devs Double and shoot the pylon with the branches from the trees deflecting the shots
Newcronz - The Pylon marshals shooting at left speeds for a blast and clearing its own
Marines - Preds double to shoot the same pylon on the trees for another blast
Newcronz - The other Pylon goes on overwatch
Marines - Speeders double to break the damn pylon
Newcronz - Monoliths left double and kill a speeder
Marines - Thunderbolts kamikazi against the other pylon for a blast losing 1 in the process
Newcronz - Assault speeders with immortals out of a portal wiping them out
Marines - Double the other speeders to break the other pylon
Newcronz - Assault scouts of out a portal with blades killing 1 breaking them
Marines - Thunderbolts ground attack immortals killing the lord breaking them
Newcronz - Double centre monoliths through forrest losing the portal and breaking
Marines - Thunderbolts ground attack immortals wiping them out
Marines - Double the Tac marines up the field shooting the broken pylon
Newcronz - Double destoyers targeting tac marines with hunter taking out hunter and rhino
Marines - Air assault pylon taking off a DC
Newcronz - Monoliths double
Newcronz - Night Scyths drop portal
Newcronz - Immortals engage scouts leaving them to 1 man
Newcronz - Night Scyths drop portal
Newcronz - Flayed ones assault preds wiping them out


Turn 2
Marines win the roll off
Marines - Devs Single and shoot destroyers for a blasts (check daves pics for a dice roll)
Marines - Single tacticals and shoot the destroyers killing 1
Newcronz - Marshal destroyers placing a blast on the devs
Marines - Tacs with dread assault the pylon wiping it out breaking the other
Newcronz - Double monoliths and shoot a rhino from the BTS
Marines - Fail to activate TBolts
Newcronz - double immortals shooting the bts for a blast
Newcronz - retain and engage with flayed ones for FF losing with 2 left
Marines - Tbolts groun attack blades killling 1
Newcronz - Monoliths double shooting rhinos from devs
Marines - Ground attack flayed ones hacking one down
Newcronz - Engage devs through broken portal out of another wiping them out after 2 rounds
Marines - Thunderhawk ground attacks broken blades hacking 1 down
Newcronz - Nightscyths come on dopping portal
Newcronz - BTS engages tactical BTS wiping it out
Newcronz - ground attack speeders killing 1 breaking them

Terminators teleport in
Turn 3
Cronz win roll off (So not Daves day today).
Newcronz - Immortals engage terminators breaking them
Marines - Single the speeders breaking the pylon
Marines - Retain singling the tac marines shoot destroyeres for a blast
Newcronz - Single Destoyers shooting the tac marines for a blast
Marines - TBolt ground attacks flayed ones killing 1 breaking them
Newcronz - double monoliths onto marine blitz
Marines - TBolt ground attacks cron BTS killing the Lord
Newcronz - Marshal BTS
Marines - Thunderhawk lands on blitz wiping out the last tomb blade
Newcronz - Night Scythes ground attack speeders killing 1 breaking them
Marines - TBolts groun attack destoryers killing 2 breaking them
Newcronz - Night Scythes ground attack for a blast

Turn 4
Marines win the roll off
Marines - TBolt ground attacks destroyers killing 1
Newcronz - Double monolith to shoot hawk for a blast
Newcronz - Fail to retain with flayed ones breaking them
Marines - Tacticals sustain on monliths for a blast
Newcronz - Marshal Monoliths
Newcronz - Engage Thunderhawk through portal killing it
Marines - Tbolt break the destroyers
Newcronz - marshal monliths onto TNH
Marines - Tbolts ground attack monoliths for a blast
Newcronz - double BTS shooting terminators for a blast
Newcronz - retain with scythes breaking terminators killing 1
Marines - Fail to marshal speeder and it breaks.
Newcronz - scythes wipe out the last speeder

Newcronz win 3-0 BTS, Blitz and TNH

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Just want to points out I don't think Ive officially beaten Dave before. Also never play necrons or the sautekh legion.

Dave had the worst dice all game and was dominating the dice. But still I feel the list is pretty good. A few points.
*Nightscythes giving portals anywhere on the board after out activating with cheap as chip formations like
*Warriors for 200 points
*Monolith pairs for 175.
*Tomb Blades with amazing range out of portals for 200 points

I dont really see any reason to take some of the cool stuff in the list id like to
Doomsday Arks
Ghost Arks
Annihilation Barge
Catacomb Command Barge

Im sure Dave will be happy to provide some feedback too. Im not trying to be crazy negative it just seems its Necrons but better.

Also to note we used the new LM rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Fantastic, glad you got to give the list a try. Sorry to hear about Daves abismal rolling. Yeah popcorn style list can be quite potent, but are also quite luck dependant in my experience. Looking forward to the feed back from Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:40 pm 
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One game's not much to go on, but comparing this list to what's in the Raiders list and how I've done against that leads me to believe that most of the formations are 25-50 points under-costed.

Warriors alone dropped from 225 to 200 because of an armor change. Coupled with the lack of Phase Out that's way too low. I'm not sure what prompted the armor change, but if it's truly necessary then I'd suggest a bigger core formation at 225 points (say 8 units) rather than keeping it at 6 units for a reduced cost. Building an activation heavy Necron army is easy without giving them access to cheaper core formations.

Immortals are 40 points in the Raiders and 37.5 in the UK. In their own formation and coupled with a lord character as well as the lack of Phase Out I think that puts them at atleast 300, maybe 325.

Monoliths dropped 25 points, with the only changes being it can only make a single move for a withdraw and it no longer Phases Out. I don't see the need for a different stat line here either, but regardless I don't think a drop is justified. 15cm less movement for a Fearless unit is nothing. If anything, it keeps you from moving a Portal up, but without Phase Out at least you don't have to worry about Portals being broken and staying off board.

On the Tomb Blades, I just noted they don't have Necron. Typo? We played them with it. The 50cm of FF threat is pretty nice for 200 points, They're worth more than Flayed One in my opinion.

Finally, there's not much that's going to be able to stop a Night Scythe from putting a Portal right where the Necrons need it. You're looking at 4 AA hits on average to blow them out of the sky. They're a huge force multiplier for 175 points, even if they didn't have a shooting attack I'd still take them at that price.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:24 am 
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Dave wrote:
One game's not much to go on, but comparing this list to what's in the Raiders list and how I've done against that leads me to believe that most of the formations are 25-50 points under-costed.

Warriors alone dropped from 275 to 200 because of an armor change. Coupled with the lack of Phase Out that's way too low. I'm not sure what prompted the armor change, but if it's truly necessary then I'd suggest a bigger core formation at 275 points (say 8 units) rather than keeping it at 6 units for a reduced cost. Building an activation heavy Necron army is easy without giving them access to cheaper core formations.


Yeah not a bad suggestion. The armour value was changed because the many revisions ago because it was felt that the 7th edition necrons shouldn't have the same fortitude as marines. I wasn't that sold on the idea at first either. It reduces the odds of a favourable portal attack significantly. I think the goal was to shy away from Necrons only working by throwing warriors out of portals. But this is kind of self defeating since you can just run formations of immortals with better stats than the original warrrior formations. The Immortals should be 0-1 restricted IMO if they are to continue in their current incarnation.

Dave wrote:
Immortals are 40 points in the Raiders and 37.5 in the UK. In their own formation and coupled with a lord character as well as the lack of Phase Out I think that puts them at atleast 300, maybe 325.

I think the reason being that you cant use portasl to escape into reserves anymore. your stuff once out of reserves is stuck on the board. Infantry is still the main driving force of this list (though to a little bit lesser extent than the previous list) and having your opponent focus the infantry formations down so you can regenerate can be crippling.
Dave wrote:
Monoliths dropped 25 points, with the only changes being it can only make a single move for a withdraw and it no longer Phases Out. I don't see the need for a different stat line here either, but regardless I don't think a drop is justified. 15cm less movement for a Fearless unit is nothing. If anything, it keeps you from moving a Portal up, but without Phase Out at least you don't have to worry about Portals being broken and staying off board.

This due to the portal nerf (broken portals giving BM's) and the LM nerf 4+ inv rather than perma RA. Having the formations sizes drop to 2 was just a test. It can easily go back to 3. They don't have a different stat line though, its exactly the same.

Dave wrote:
On the Tomb Blades, I just noted they don't have Necron. Typo? We played them with it. The 50cm of FF threat is pretty nice for 200 points, They're worth more than Flayed One in my opinion.

Not a typo

Dave wrote:
Finally, there's not much that's going to be able to stop a Night Scythe from putting a Portal right where the Necrons need it. You're looking at 4 AA hits on average to blow them out of the sky. They're a huge force multiplier for 175 points, even if they didn't have a shooting attack I'd still take them at that price.


The idea was with the armour reduction on warriors, loss of phase out and portal changes you just couldn't get the monoliths to where you needed them unless you kept formations in reserve until later turns (also the test of making monolith formations of 2). Your warriors staying on the board they would need several groups of portals around to give them a chance of getting out of harms way. But often players were losing their forward monoliths and troops would just be stuck in no mans land. The night scythe filled this roll, 175 points to be able to place a portal where you need it (they forgo firing to place the portal). They used to have to land to place the portal but I had many people saying this made them much too vulnerable. I would be fine going back to the old way though.

Really appreciate the feed back. keep it coming!

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:00 am 
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I cant 100% remember it was late at night for me but I'm pretty sure the blades were played as normal without the Necron rule. Need to look at the pics to be sure once Daves uploaded.

Also i think i commented on the Night scythes being to good being able to land and contest late game and that was what sparked the change.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Thanks for the report.

Most of the 'Newcron' changes have been good in reflecting the 40k changes, which really was the whole point of making the new list. Necrons got a heck of a change between their first and second books.
Warriors dropping in save comes from that, and I think is fine to reflect in Epic- though your idea of an 8 stand formation isn't bad.
Immortals are basically the new core in 'Newcrons'- kind of like Guardians and Aspect Warriors for Eldar, the elite guys are the front-line troops. Limiting them would be strongly against that background.

I don't really consider loss of Phase Out to be a boon for the Newcrons- the ability to have regenerating formations hide and escape hack down, enemy proximity penalties, etc. off table was huge.

On the Monoliths, you'd be surprised what a difference only a single 15cm move can mean. Remembering that if they do withdraw they need to end up 5cm away to avoid destruction, a broken Monolith tends to have very few options for getting away- and they're damned easy formations to break.


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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:21 pm 
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atension wrote:
I think the reason being that you cant use portasl to escape into reserves anymore. your stuff once out of reserves is stuck on the board. Infantry is still the main driving force of this list (though to a little bit lesser extent than the previous list) and having your opponent focus the infantry formations down so you can regenerate can be crippling.


Destroying the infantry formations can be crippling in the main Necron list because you're either left with no formation or a formation that's broken, off board and not coming back next turn 33% of the time. This is exactly what I tried to do in the game, but the activation advantage with the cheaper formations prevented me from getting at the infantry. By the time the bulk of the infantry was on the board I was nearly out activated.

Quote:
This due to the portal nerf (broken portals giving BM's) and the LM nerf 4+ inv rather than perma RA. Having the formations sizes drop to 2 was just a test. It can easily go back to 3. They don't have a different stat line though, its exactly the same.


I'm not seeing how the Living Metal change is a nerf for non-WEs. A TK hit would be a 4+ save with the old rule and the new one. The TK reduction of the old rule being removed in the new rule only affects WEs.

They do have different stats though, Raiders don't have Ponderous.

Geep wrote:
I don't really consider loss of Phase Out to be a boon for the Newcrons- the ability to have regenerating formations hide and escape hack down, enemy proximity penalties, etc. off table was huge.


I disagree. Yes, infantry can hide off board and regenerate but they count as completely destroyed for the purposes of BTS and tiebreak, and have no chance of rallying to deny TSNP. There's also a 33% chance that they'll be offboard next turn too and again count as completely destroyed as above.

Phase out was a disadvantage in the Raiders list. Removing it makes Necrons better, not worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Thanks for the report and comments. It has been a while since I played with the Sautekh list but would agree with the above comments on the power of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Phase out was a disadvantage in the Raiders list. Removing it makes Necrons better, not worse.


Speaking as someone who's been pretty successful with Necrons (both the UK and standard EA list) i have to disagree with you on phase out being a negative. Being able to completely re-deploy monoliths for example to get portals exactly where you need them is a huge advantage. It also means that infantry are always rallying on a 3+ as you can't get within 30cm of them to reduce the roll. Granted there can be issues if your BTS gets stuck off table for some reason, but if you're careful with it this happens very infrequently, and you have complete flexibility on what you do with the unit making the issue pretty minimal.

Looking at the Sautekh list as it currently stands i'm surprised people aren't getting in on the Ghost Ark action. Effectively 25pts for a transport with reasonable speed, a 5+ reinforced save and leader? Not to mention skimmer, and you have an absolute steal when you think about what you can otherwise get for 25pts.

Interestingly you can also currently have a 10 man warrior unit with a cryptek and c'tan shard for double inspiring for a modest 475pts. This is also pretty damn tasty.

Personally given the portal changes (i.e no going back into reserves) the main issue i'd be concerned about is the '1 turn drop' approach, where the list can out-activate an opponent, waits till turn 3, and uses a hammer formation (as above) to take the opponents blitz with no retaliation at the end of the turn. The list also has the option to do the whole 'flying circus' routine if the opponent has limited AA given the aircraft capabilities. Coupled with that if the opponent's air cover is mainly in the form of fighters the sentry pilons are very interesting, as a couple of units have the potential to really lock down an opponents own air support with that crazy range and their ability to TP.


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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:53 am 
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Quote:
I'm not seeing how the Living Metal change is a nerf for non-WEs. A TK hit would be a 4+ save with the old rule and the new one. The TK reduction of the old rule being removed in the new rule only affects WEs.

They do have different stats though, Raiders don't have Ponderous.


Sorry I missunderstood, I generally refer to stats as just the Armour, CC, FF and the weapons.

The LM change does have a big effect on monoliths, MW attacks mean only the inv save can be taken.

I agree formations of 2 monoloths is much too spammable and already planned to adjust them back in V1.2. Though the change to LM, addition of ponderous, and portal changes i figure still warrants the 25pt drop. Open to alternative options though. Would you rather increase the points back and remove ponderous. It was originally introduced to reduce the cheese of broken monoliths from getting another double move for even better portal placement. But with the lack of phase out and the single consolidate they severely lack mobility once down.

I'm with Richard and Geep on droping phase out to be a nerf overall. There are some situations where it makes things better but many other that make it a lot worse as Richard noted.

I've received some private messages supportjng the idea of removing monoliths and potentially warbarques from the list all together. Going to make a new thread and post a poll for votes.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:16 am 
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Ahh this was my idea :D

Im not a necron player but i think it would create a fresher more balanced list to set it apart from the scarab list. I would recommend brainstorming ideas from other necron players though for a faster road to approval.

Edit: Happy to get you the 6 games for the process too.

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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:07 am 
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I don't think dropping monoliths are necessarily a big deal in the list given you can still have a portal with Night Scythes if you really want a flexible portal assault anywhere on the board, i guess one question would be what the thinking in terms of playstyle you're aiming for with this list compared to the standard Necron list? Looking at the test games so far they're still being played a lot like standard necrons, if without quite as much the same portal shenanigans you normally see.

Standard necrons i see very much as a raiding force that teleports in, wrecks face, then disappears like a robotic Kaiser Soze.

For the 'Newcrons' i'd assumed this would be more for things like a tomb world army, where you're either defending your tomb complexes from assault, or have woken up and are moving to reclaim the planet. In both cases not as much focus on Portals as they are traditionally used in the raiders list and more focus on solid units on board with interesting interactions between the core warriors and the elite units.

It's almost a shame there isn't a quicker ground vehicle with a portal, as if for instance the ghost ark units had the potential for some form of portal addon (that didn't kill their movement such as just adding a monolith) it would give the list some interesting options on board, with them effectively acting as a mobile portal and support unit for the elites doing the actual assaults, but making things riskier than normal for the necron player, as you can't throw a unit of mechanised warriors forward in quite the same way you can monoliths given the fearless and armour saves. Plus, it means you're paying a premium for the portals (and core units) meaning you can potentially have cheaper activations in the list as you're unlikely to have the same activation count you'd otherwise have with units like cheap monoliths.


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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm 
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I can agree with dropping Warbarques, but Monoliths are one of the Necron icons- both in the old list and the new list. It seems kind of weird to hamstring the options of those who like the new-style Necrons just because of the preferences of the stick-in-the-mud older players. (Just as some background I played Necrons since they first appeared in 40k, but have only played 'newcrons' in Epic)

I don't see a problem with having 'Newcrons' able to play in a similar style to 'Oldcrons'. The troop, support and phase-out differences make for pretty significant changes. Additionally I've never seen people arguing to delete various Guard or Marine units just because most of those variant lists can also be built to be near identical to each other- why is this such a big issue here?


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 Post subject: Re: Sautekh Legion vs Codex Astartes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Geep wrote:
..., but Monoliths are one of the Necron icons- both in the old list and the new list...


Totally agree


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