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2017 - Ork Review

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Perhaps a new 'WAAAGH' special rule giving Ork infantry units infiltrate (excluding Stormboyz) for one turn only? There was something along those lines for 40k Orks at some point (I'm not up on the current rules). Maybe requiring the Warlord to be alive at the time to use it.

I don't hold out that much hope for such a change, though I think it would be quite fitting. Pushing for a battlewagon tweak is probably more likely to get somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Has anyone suggested simply making Big And Uge warbands cheaper, while keeping the standard (air droppable) mob at the current points cost?


Hey look at that,. common sense

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:21 pm 
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But drops are always done 25p usually (what I've noticed anyways) and that wont help. Maybe if someone dared to do a bigger drop like 50p they could get interesting/viable to use in competitive games.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:42 pm 
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My two cents.

Yeah, definitely better to just drop points for 'UGE than to create all sorts of new rules as it helps all the strategies a formation can do and not just one or two, but i would suggest to do that to other formations that are barely being taken ¿Who has seen for example an 'UGE Blitz Brigade more than once a year, even thought the discount is good? Even 'UGE Kults are scarcely seen. I would do it on Warbands, Blitz, Kults and would think about Stompamobs and Gunzmobs.

Also, i think the same as Mordoten that even dropping 25 points won't get them 'UGE formations to be seen a lot more, but 50 points can be too cheap maybe ... I suppose it hasn't been done before because the cost per stand becomes frighteningly low, even if the formation as a whole is not that good. We could begin with 25 less and see what happens.

On the matter of mechanized Warbands, is it even necessary? If we want mechanized infantry specialized on assaults there is already on Ferals and Speed Freks and in several flavours. Why give the same to the three armies? Also, if we want to make a mechanized Warband as good cost wise as an on foot one, we will need to add the discounts to BIG and 'UGE to them too apart, if not they will always be behind as the vehicles are not discounted, what will need a new entry for the mechanized Warband ...
So far of the options proposed, i prefer the shields. I don't like them much, but give the list a better option for mechanizing while it doesn't solve the problem itself and give something different to Ferals and Speed Freks'.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:17 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Has anyone suggested simply making Big And Uge warbands cheaper, while keeping the standard (air droppable) mob at the current points cost?


Hey look at that,. common sense


So the proposal would be:

Warband - 200pts (20pts per unit)
Big Warband - 325pts (16.25pts per unit - currently 17.5pts)
Uge Warband - 450pts (15pts per unit - currently 16.6pts)



For what it's worth, the points per unit for Blitz Brigades are:
Normal - 37.5
Big - 31.25
Uge - 29.16


And Gun mobs:
Normal - 25
Big - 22.5
Uge - 21.6


It seems consistent that going to Big gives a considerable drop in points per unit, while going to Uge doesn't tend to bring as considerable a discount benefit, in general. That in of itself may partially explain why Uge formations are rarely seen.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:21 pm 
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That is a great point, EvilandChaos. I also think people are looking at it in a vacuum when they worry about making the cost per unit too cheap. There are list building and tabletop performance issues that come with having such an expensive formation.

First, the formations activation itself is worth something. Second, piling more units into one formation incurs an opportunity cost if nothing else that makes the units less valuable as the formation grows past some optimum size and crowds out other activations.

We can at least try to quantify the cost of an activation when we figure out per-unit cost.

(Cue some out-there theory with a lot of assumptions)

A number that I see thrown around as the cost of a "naked" activation (the activation alone, with no units) is 50 points. If no one has ever done a poll on what people would pay for a naked activation, someone should. Anyway.

If we accept that 200 pts is a fair price for a Normal Warband and 50 pts is a fair price for the activation alone, that means 150 pts for the actual units. We can use that to figure out prices for the Big and Uge versions:

    Big Warband: 350 pts (2x150 for units, 50 for activation, equal to the current price of 350 325)

    Uge Warband: 500 pts (3x150 for units, 50 for activation, equal to the current price of 500)

Comparing our theoretical cost to the real cost, the Uge Warband costs the same per-unit as the Normal Warband,but the Big Warband has a 25 pt discount. Per unit cost for the actual list price using this method is:

    Normal: 15 per ( (200 pts - 50 pts)/10 units )

    Big: 13.75 15 per ( (325350 pts - 50 pts)/20 units )

    Uge: 15 per ( (500 pts - 50 pts)/30 units )

Big Warbands get run often enough and no one is complaining they are overpowered. A 25 pt drop on the Uge Warband would still be a higher per unit cost than a Big Warband. I think this supports giving the Uge Warband a 50 pt drop over what it is now. That gives new per unit costs of:

    Normal: 15 per ( (200 pts - 50 pts)/10 units )

    Big: 13.75 per ( (325 pts - 50 pts)/20 units )

    Uge: 13.33 per ( (450 pts - 50 pts)/30 units )

Feel free to quibble with the exact numbers but I think the concept is sound. I would heavily test that price before I changed Mob Rule or even adjusted Battlewagon costs.


Edit because I had the wrong price for the Big Warband. If you take 50 points as the cost of an activation, there is essentially no discount for the Big and Uge Warbands. This makes them less attractive as they being crowding out other activations with essentially no discount for what you're buying. Yes, Mob Rule makes Orks stronger with increased numbers, but IMO that doesn't outweigh the big impact it has on your list when you sink 500 points into slow vulnerable infantry.


Last edited by GrimDarkBits on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:57 am 
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Major edit to the above post because I did my math with the wrong point cost for the Big Warband. I think I would amend the original numbers to suggest a 25 point drop on a Big Warband and a 50 point drop on a Uge Warband.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Hey guys, don´t if this proposition came already up and i´m too lazy to read all 16 pages of this thread.
I thought why not just give the Battlewagon one additional transport capacity from 2+1 to 3+1.
What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:10 am 
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Orks already have a huge drawback, they only have a Supreme commander. No Commanders. I know Orks are very poor at tactics, but they are very good at inspiring the boyz to get in and have a biff up, especially when they are in larger mobs.

Aerial and mechanised assault is something Orks have never been as good at in 40K when compared to Guard companies, Marines, Eldar and their dark kin in their hover transports. Orks get a save of 6+. So do Dark Eldar, Squats and Mexchanicum basic infantry. Orks are bad ai FF and shooting generally, but good in close and personal. They are a horde force that have Nobz to get them inspired. My suggestion of paying for a single unit to be upgraded only makes orks better at close combat which is what they are, better than most forces like Tau fire warriors, Imperial guard and Chaos cultists.

My point still stands about the upgrade.

Look to making mechanised transports cheaper if you want, and making large and uge cost for the basic wyldboyz mob and warband mob, but a single inspiring in a formation is not as big a game changer as you think. It will help Orks to capture the objectives, and hold out better against enemy combined assaults to shift them from ground they have taken.

In a recent tournament, I had a junka trukk mob wiped out by a marine tactical formation that had a commissar and a vindicator. The junka boyz had a nob, but still broke because the marines had inspiring, and better armour saves. I even rolled better than my opponent for the consolidation roll, but still lost by 3 because of inspiring and the losses sustained.

To make matters worse, Orks can only get 1 unit that can bring in 3 other formations with it when engaging. Marines, Guard, etc have more commanders available. Expected, but you need to off set the opponents ability to perform attacks like this across the board by making it harder for the orks to break in close combat

Question, but why do Orks Nobz not get a EA+1 MW to account for their Power Claws, or even EA +1 attack for their big Choppa Chain Axes? Something I thought Orks would have had.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Orks are a mob not a trained army. They should rarely be doing complex coordinated assault. That's a design feature not a bug.

Dropping prices on transports possibly with 3transport, point reductions on huge, and some power fields seems a far more sane approach than complex fiddly new faction level rules (that effect all the Ork lists)

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:20 pm 
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I agree they are not co-ordinated, as I said, and why they only get 1 commander who is the supreme commander. However Orks being a mob army, follow the rule that the big Ork is boss, and if you muck up or run away, expect a whack in the head, sometimes by a Power Claw. This tends to inspire the other orks to keep in line and stay in the battle, and fight harder.

Thus why I said they need Inspiring to compensate for other armies ability to perform multiple co-ordinated attacks (often with 2 or more inspiring characters) across the board in the same turn, overwhelming the ork mobs who just have their numbers and a 6+ save normally to try and hang on. However they tend to lose this bonus when assaulted by multiple enemy formations., and also clipping attacks where they can cause the orks to counter charge close enemy formations who were not part of the original assault formation/s, most likely with inspiring to tip the balance and then some.

Why not a 50point upgrade for a single Nob in a formation to a Big Nob with the only difference is he gets inspiring. Even more limiting is you can only take the upgrade if the formation had 10 or more infantry stands (not including expendable units like Grots and Squig catapults). This also makes players more likely to take larger warbands.

The average warband has 2 nobz and 6 boyz, a Junka trukk brigade has 6 boyz and a Nob. None of whom would be viable for the upgrade. Even Feral Ork Wild boyz, would need a large formatiion in order to take the upgrade. reducing the chances that it is taken without reducing the number of activations an ork army has.

Junka trukk brigades would have to purchase 4 extra boyz and trukks at a cost of 25 points each to upgrade their single Nob. This means they have 4 extra trukks and 4 extra boy units, for +150 points (including the big nob upgrade) - 375 points for a Big Nob, 9 Boyz and 10 LV Junka Trukks.

A Feral Warband would have to purchase a large warband meaning a Big Nob, 3 Nobz, 12 Boyz, and 4 Grotz, a Wyrd Boy plus the ambiguous Orkasaurus, and a single Squiggoth to carry the rest of the force. That is 675 points for a single formation. And if it gets a crit and runs off the board or into impassable terrain, the infantry on board need to make saves, and the whole formations is likely to be broken. 2 Deathsrrike missiles from a guard formation will see the death of your over priced BTS as well.

So you see the cost of taking my proposed upgrade is so limiting that the Orks will only likely give the upgrade to their Supreme commander's Mob, making it the BTS., and min/max everything else to make up for the lack of activations.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:04 pm 
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I took the following list to a local, fairly casual, tournament with the proposed changes:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Ghazgkhull Thraka's War Horde (NetEA Tournament Pack 2013)
==================================================

WARBAND [365]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, Battlefortress, Oddboy, Warlord

WARBAND [365]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, Battlefortress, Oddboy

WARBAND [250]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, 2 Boyz + Grotz

LANDA [200]

FIGHTA SKWADRON [300]
6 Fighta Bomba

KULT OF SPEED [200]
2 Warbuggy, 6 Skorcha

KULT OF SPEED [200]
2 Warbuggy, 6 Skorcha

MEKBOY GUNZMOB [125]
5 Big Gunz

MEKBOY GUNZMOB [125]
5 Big Gunz

MEKBOY STOMPAMOB [570]
3 Stompa, Supa Stompa, 2 Dreadnought

STORMBOYZ WARHORDE [150]
6 Stormboyz

BLITZ BRIGADE [150]
4 Deth Kopta

------

I played three games: Against Tyranids, Codex Astartes and Black Legion. A loss, a victory and a narrow winning draw, respectively. No battle reports, and I won't claim to be a great player, so I'll just give my general impressions of the proposed updates.

As far as the Battlefortresses go, I have to say I really like the oddboy upgrade. The formation feels sturdy enough that I didn't worry too much about leaving the warband inside the fortress occasionally, but more importantly it adds a great amount of tactical flexibility to the warband. Their threat range goes from 60 cm on a double to 90+ cm, and their engage range jumps to 45-50 cm as well.
I've employed warbands in battlewagons before and found them worthwhile, but I think the fortress beats them thanks to being more durable. I've never left a warband inside the battlewagons - even against strategy rating 1 that always seemed too risky. With the fortresses it feels like my opponent would have to invest some serious firepower against them to kill the warband, which at least would spare something else.

It also may just be that my opponents didn't give the fortresses the appropriate attention - I am not sure I lost a single one in any of the games. Although my second opponent did teleport in three full Terminator formations to make a combined assault on my two intermingled battlefortress mobs - only to get sent packing thanks to kunnin' orky taktikz (ie, awful dice rolls).


As for the skorchas, I've never been very good at using Kults of Speed. They are often too flimsy to engage anything other than weak formations that you can bully around, and tend to end up getting shot to bits before I can make good use of them. In those terms dropping the Skorchas' save to 6+ doesn't feel too much like a downgrade. I did have a couple of good experiences using them as supporting fire, or just as a decent firing platform against infantry, and I suppose that is how they are meant to be used. So I've no objection against lowering their saves if that is deemed necessary. I've always run my Kults with a few buggies, and this proposed change does feel like it encourages that.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:40 am 
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Thanks for testing out the suggestions! And for giving your thoughts on them, very much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:12 am 
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Thanks for the thoughts. We'll get the NetERC up to full strength and get this minor changes approved.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Thanks Tiny-Tim, that's great to hear!

In the meantime I'm working on adding another Uge Warband worth of Ork infantry to my collection. I want to better test out mass footslogging with and without price drops or changes to Mob Rule. Will report back if I can get some games in soon.


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