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2017 - Ork Review

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:52 am 
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but i don't think we should compare the battle wagon to other units in other lists when trying to make it viable to use in the ork list. The rhinos is in a list that seems to be working good without much issues.

At 20 points it will cost a normal warband 80p to become motorized. I still think thats too much. The Ork list is very dependable of getting the their units into CC to make it work., so i would argue that the warbands needs to have transports to be usefull. I still would hesitate to use battlewagons at that cost for my orks.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:00 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
We all know the issue with CC vs FF but as with others I can't see infiltrate being the solution. I see no justification for orks ignoring zone of control, nor that they would run faster than eldar, berserkers etc. It's a non starter for me. In an ideal world allowing units to double their charge move if they do not firefight would transform the fortunes of CC troops, but of course it cannot happen - the rules are fixed and even if it were a special rule (given to almost every CC specialist), it'd be a massive rebalancing for every list.

However when it comes to Orks, remember that in epic we are representating a battle on a much wider area than in 40K, which is more akin to an epic engagement. That only garrisons and objective holders are deployed without transports makes perfect sense to me - everything else would be transported to the front line before the charge and redeployed afterwards. The 'ork horde advancing' can just as easily represent 'after being delivered by their transports, the orks charge ahead into close combat', rather than a 10 mile hike, slipping unseen into the midst of the enemy (infiltrate).

What this means for epic orks is that simply tweaking the transport options may well work wonders. I don't think a new free unit is necessary, making the existing one good value (and just cheaper overall) should suffice - enough to make the mounted warband a mainstay of the army, with the odd landa for deep strikes.


This really nails it for me, much of the moving about in epic is done in a more strategic manner, the ground scale is meant to be elastic and non-linear, so for me 'hordes of boyz charging into combat' in 40k bears little resemblance to epic

that said, I'd be happy with 10-15pt battlewagons, they are far too pricy as they are

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Hence my earlier post
Ginger wrote:
I do like the idea of adding junk trucks/buggies to basic formations for a cheaper price. Indeed you might even follow the marine example by allowing them to take ‘basic transport’ for free, which could be defined as odds and ends put together by the orks. Such ‘vehicles would have a slower move (20 cm?) and no CC or FF capability. The ‘transport’ is lost when the owning ork unit is destroyed, and does not count for casualties (basically it gives the owning ork unit a temporary movement boost until it is destroyed by enemy fire, dangerous terrain or is discarded etc). Given the ork’s random nature, these ‘vehicles’ are LV, ranging from skateboards up to armoured cars, and perhaps should be diced for to see whether the formation is entirely equipped?
This would also provide a form of ‘infiltrate’ by giving the orks so equipped a 25cm assault including their dismount distance. . . .


In essence this would give some Ork formations access to a cheap ‘one shot’ transport option that gets discarded when they get into a fight, which seems to fit the bill. It gives them greater initial mobility, potentially mimics infiltrate by allowing them to dismount as part of their assault move etc. but without increasing the formation size,


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:09 am 
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It sounds like that'd end up being rather complicated and/or fiddly though. Something like making battlewagons cheaper would be way cleaner.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:14 am 
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SpeakerToMachines wrote:
They're too expensive at 35p, sure, but they're much better than rhinos - no more durable, but a lot shootier and better in FF too. I think 20-25p is approriate.

Aren't most Rhinos... free?

SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Regarding durability, their 5+ armour always puzzled me - the 40K scale battlewagons are much sturdier than rhinos. Was there an earlier generation of fragile GW battlewagons that these are supposed to represent?

Yeah, they're just Trukks in 40k terms. I feel like "sturdier than Rhinos" is understating the case pretty hard - 40k Battlewagons are on par with Leman Russes, which get a 4+ Reinforced. They're the most obvious example of how 40k and Epic Orks have drifted apart over the years.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:20 am 
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kadeton wrote:
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
They're too expensive at 35p, sure, but they're much better than rhinos - no more durable, but a lot shootier and better in FF too. I think 20-25p is approriate.

Aren't most Rhinos... free?

[quote=".

No their either included in the formation pricing or are individually priced for chaos lists

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:40 am 
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I'd peg 40k style battlewagons as being 5+ RA in Epic, they're not quite as tough as a Russ IIRC. Transport capacity of 20 also I think, with the same broad sub categories (transport, flak, gun, oddboy)?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:58 am 
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kadeton wrote:
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
They're too expensive at 35p, sure, but they're much better than rhinos - no more durable, but a lot shootier and better in FF too. I think 20-25p is approriate.

Aren't most Rhinos... free?


I always considered that they were included in the cost of SM formations, compensating the cost of taking drop pods and making taking on foot detachments a lose of points.

About making them 25 points, if we are to compare with other armies, Chimeras cost 25 points and have one less transport capacity and one less AT6+, so 30 points should be the lowest.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:35 am 
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25 points but reduce the 2 x twin linked big shootas to 2 x big shootas is a possible approach too.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:05 am 
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I agree that battlewaggons at lower points cost would be great, but the interaction with “Mob Rule” needs to be taken into account when comparing to rhinos and chimeras.

Imho 25pnts seems a good place to start and then if too much nerf the guns. 300pnts for a 14 unit mechanised formation which activates and rallies on a 1+ with 2 leaders seems pretty good to me.

Another more subtle nerf might be to switch the 5/6+ CC and FF for battle wagons. Slightly shorter engage range if you want to use it, but with all those rollers and spikes it seems thats what the drivers would going for.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'd peg 40k style battlewagons as being 5+ RA in Epic, they're not quite as tough as a Russ IIRC. Transport capacity of 20 also I think, with the same broad sub categories (transport, flak, gun, oddboy)?

Russes have better armour (3+ vs 4+) and higher toughness (8 vs 7), though you can upgrade the Battlewagons to be T8 as well. Wagons have substantially more Wounds (16 vs 12). In real terms, they're very much on par in survivability. 20-model transport capacity, or 12 models in the "Gunwagon" version. Sadly 40k no longer has any equivalent to Flakwagons or whatever the Epic Oddboy is supposed to represent, though Forgeworld provide rules for Battlewagons with supa-kannons and lifta-droppas.

Steve54 wrote:
No [Rhinos are] either included in the formation pricing or are individually priced for chaos lists

It's a little hard to extract the portion of the formation pricing that comes from transports, so I guess the Chaos pricing is the guideline. 10 points per model seems a very reasonable cost for transports of Rhino caliber... it seems a bit of a stretch to say that a Battlewagon is twenty-five points more effective than that.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Just lowering them 10p won't see them being used more. Again, price them at 10-15p and people will actually use them.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:48 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Just lowering them 10p won't see them being used more. Again, price them at 10-15p and people will actually use them.


Yup, all this cross list comparing is essentially meaningless, I'm of a mind to test them at 10pts each and spam them to see what effect it has in a game....

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Not sure what is the right price, I mainly just want to avoid new special rules units. But that's one heck of a drop, when you tot up the formation as a whole - 340 down to 240 and 630 down to 430. And these are pretty powerful assault formations. At that price it is worth having spares.

What about flak and gunwagons? Those are transports too, not so much better units, and needing twice as many the current upgrade price is even more prohibitive than it is for battlewagons. Leave them as they are and you could take 3x as many battlewagons and still come in chealer. Yet bear in mind if they were dropped to the same price as the battlewagons you'd be paying 30 points for the warband compared to the blitz brigade, which is obviously not right.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Why do gunwagons and flakwagons have better CC than battlewagons by the way?

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