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Ork tank-hunting

 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:35 pm 
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Man of kent wrote:
Hi Cik: I don't have much more time to comment on for now but a quick look at your list leads me to think that you only have 5 formations on the table? That's a very low amount for 2.5k; I would suggest that the spacecraft is a waste of points and that you should concentrate on having a larger number of smaller formations...with the models in that list I'd suggest something like:

Incompertus, 1505 POINTS
Ghazgkhull Thraka's War Horde (Epic UK v100909)
==================================================

WARBAND [315]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, Battlefortress

WARBAND [315]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, Battlefortress

MEKBOY STOMPAMOB [475]
3 Stompa, Supa Stompa

STORMBOYZ WARHORDE [150]
6 Commandos

WARBAND [250]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, 2 Killa Kan

LANDA [200]

================================

That gives you another 795pts to spend on stuff like blitz brigades with oddboyz and flakwagons, and maybe another warband with a zzap gun in it to sit on and protect an objective. Consider:

WARBAND [275]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, Big Gun, Oddboy (Zzap Gun)

BLITZ BRIGADE (BIG) [350]
2 Oddboy (soopa guns), 4 Flakwagon, 4 Gunwagon

BLITZ BRIGADE [200]
2 Flakwagon, 2 Gunwagon, Oddboy (zzap Gun)

Which would take you up to 2530pts so you'd have to save 30pts somewhere but perhaps you could change the boyz mob with zzap gun into a mekboy gunz mob instead and spend the spare pts upgrading other formations. THat gives you 9 activations over his 7 so if you're careful you can save your hard hitting weapons till last.


is it wise to have so many easily breakable formations? it feels impolite to ask considering you are giving advice, but it always seemed to me that bigger was better, because mob rule makes them silly difficult to break. does having more activations override this problem?

this list for instance, feels decent to me. though it's significantly overpoints for 2.5k, we can play up to 5k~ or so anyway, so it's just a representation of what i'm thinking. thoughts?
WARBAND ('UGE) [950]
6 Nobz, 18 Boyz, 6 Grotz, 6 Stompa, Warlord

LANDA [200]

WARBAND [410]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz, 6 Dreadnought

FIGHTA SQUADRON [300]
6 Fighta Bomba

FIGHTA SQUADRON [300]
6 Fighta Bomba

BLITZ BRIGADE (BIG) [350]
8 Gunwagon, 2 Oddboy

LANDA [200]

WARBAND [200]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz

WARBAND [200]
2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grotz


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:35 pm 
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The problem with large expensive formations is that, although they are "silly" hard to break through shooting, they are not that much more difficult to break by just winning an assault. Since Orks is quite limited in their FF capacity, it means that they are at quite a disadvantage when defending. If your opponent sets up a good assault, what many people here refer to as a "clipping" assault - maximizing their own attacks from a position where a minimum of your troops will be participating - you will lose.

Also, 950 points in a single formation is not recommended at such a low points' level. People shy from taking a Warlord Titan for 825 in 3000 points, because it severly restricts the rest of the army and it only works if you build the army around it.

The advantage of a high activation count is that in a you-go-I-go ruleset you can "sacrifice" cheap activations to force your opponent's hand. When the activation advantage is high you can move and attack freely in the end of the turn or set up extremely favourable positions for the next turn (if you have a Strategy advantage as well).

Also, the Blast Marker system of adding a BM for coming under fire means that every formation can cause BMs without even destroying anything. A 15 activation army places a lot of BM on the enemy without even hitting anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:23 pm 
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what would you recommend then? split the 'uge warband up into a few big ones? scrap it altogether? deliver more by landa?


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Mixed formation of AV and Infantry such as your addition of Dreadnoughts and Stompa's also means that the enemy tend to be able to use their firepower more effectively, I'd prefer to spend the pts of 6 stompa's on seperate formations.

Take a look at: http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php
to get a good idea of what sort of lists tend to be succesful...at least in the UK tournament scene.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:15 am 
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that makes sense. just take the stompas in their own mob and still use them as cover for the orks behind them? tbh, it probably will cost about the same. i guess the reason i took them in the same mob in the first place is to have the benefit of all the nobs and orks making them unbreakable. before i put 6 stompas in a stompamob and they just got broken on turn 2 and were worthless the whole game.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:42 am 
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i haven't gotten a chance to do any testing after the advice, so i'll let you guys know how it goes when we next play, which should be soon.

i'll write an AAR as we go or something, and you can call me stupid when i post it :3


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:51 pm 
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the stompas can't be cover for infantry behind them, the only things which block LOS are war engines, so you could theoretically hide infantry formations behind super stompas.....

stompas work well if you add cheap kanz and dreadz to them, against moderate fire, they sit at the back of the formation taking suppression, while the reinforced armour of the stompas weathers the shots, against armies with lots of TK and macro weapons, stick them up front to catch bullets for the more valuable stompas, just be aware that if you have a super stompa in the formation, he can be targeted separately due to him being a war engine....

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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:20 pm 
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welp, there goes that then. heaven forbid i KNOW THE RULES, i'll mod the list a bit then.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Stompas can't be cover for infantry behind them. However, if you put infantry in base to base contact with AV (up to two per vehicle), then the enemy suffers the -1 cover to hit modifier.
The infantry don't get a cover save though from contacting an AV, only the minus 1 to hit.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:34 pm 
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heh no worries, my experience of facing orks is that they tend to have lots and lots of medium sized formations which are nasty and overwhelm you with too many targets

make sure you beef the landa mobs up, you can carry ten ork stands and 4 grotz, so a normal warband with 2 extra boyz and free grotz is optimum for those

I'd also avoid two units of 6 fightas, one is good, and a second of 3 is nice for hitting exposed units, but due to the way ork flyers tend to be used as flying artillery, they often pick up a good few BMs from flying through flak, which means they can often spend a turn sitting out, that's a lot of points out of the game for a turn!

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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Stompas can't be cover for infantry behind them. However, if you put infantry in base to base contact with AV (up to two per vehicle), then the enemy suffers the -1 cover to hit modifier.
The infantry don't get a cover save though from contacting an AV, only the minus 1 to hit.

OK well that's exactly what i was trying to do, this list has seen more revisions than most countries' founding documents :S


i'm starting a game shortly, will let you guys know how it goes. it's me at 5k~ versus two friends at 2.5 each i think, will be gosh darned terrifying as i'm up against mechanicus and traitor guard. i will probably be waist deep in heavy armor, should be educational.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:34 pm 
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General points above russes:

They have highly concentrated firepower - suppressing or destroying one brings about a large reduction in the formation's fighting ability. Sadly, Orks don't have Disrupt weapons...

You need to average 4 hits to kill one, which is a lot. So bear that in mind and be realistic when you shoot at them (notwithstanding the effects of blast markers, above). It goes without saying that MW is effective (avg 2 hits), but crossfire has virtually the same effect.

By far the most efficient way to kill RA stuff is with hack down hits from assaults and blast markers on broken formations. Given you won't kill many in an assault (4 hits per dead tank remember), it's crucial to stack the odds beforehand with BMs and numbers. Once they're broken, chase them down mercilessly.

Not all their weapons are long range - if they have to double they lose a lot of effectiveness, and a failed activation is more damaging. It is also sometimes better just to ignore them - shooting in general is not particularly effective, and a formation doubling or at long range with a few BMs is really not very scary.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork tank-hunting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:59 pm 
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long story short it was basically a disaster. even the rolls favored me early, but i kept losing assaults to dicerolls and then routing. i don't think i'm ever going to win a game of this if i keep playing for my entire natural lifespan tbh.


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