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Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019

 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:41 pm 
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So... double un-fun? ;)
Just curious but there's no requirement for 1/3rd allies in the EA system. Would 1/4 be better or some combination of reduced/increased upper formation size sit better with some?

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:25 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
This got me thinking, would allowing the Grot Missile an option to fire an indirect Barrage instead of just the MW/TK fire mode ease the reliance on fighters for this job. Also gives the list something different to the main Ork list.


I like it! A Quake Cannon (ish) analog, Pulsa Rokkits! Mmmm, lotsa dakka and all da booms.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:29 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
So... double un-fun? ;)


No, super fun. If you can make it work


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:36 pm 
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dptdexys wrote:
This got me thinking, would allowing the Grot Missile an option to fire an indirect Barrage instead of just the MW/TK fire mode ease the reliance on fighters for this job. Also gives the list something different to the main Ork list.


Grot Rockets were a part of Aeronautica Imperialis as an add-on for Fighta Bommas. They were semi-guided rockets and lots of fun unless you were trying to glue the damn things to a FW fighta.

Lootas, especially fast Lootas, provided some of that flexibility.

The list is meant to be a challenge to play and I think that part of the issue with it has always been that there is a wide gulf between what you get from it as a tournament list and what it provides when playing friendly games. The vulnerability to indirect fire and aircraft is, I think, one of the balancing factors of the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:53 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
So... double un-fun? ;)
Just curious but there's no requirement for 1/3rd allies in the EA system. Would 1/4 be better or some combination of reduced/increased upper formation size sit better with some?

Perhaps? I have no personal opinion on this as I'm not familiar enough with list builds with army but I'm just commenting to mention it already is 1/4 in the ATML list so there's precedent.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:42 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:09 am 
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Couple of quick comments on the above discussion.

In previous versions of this list I found that the fortress mobz were the main winning element of the list. The gargants and Supa-Stompas would pound the enemy with the fortress mobz claiming objectives. This was ok, but the gargants were not IMO the focus of the list.


This is also why I have kept indirect fire out of the list. However I am listening to what is said above and we might bring something back in.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:19 am 
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GlynG wrote:
It would be great to get this finalised! I’m not bothered either way re: costing weapons or not.
Gatling Kannon seems considerably underpowered. 45cm and 6 x AP/AT5+ isn’t much good compared to the other options. Particularly on a slow unit that will often be doubling. I agree with the worse to hit rolls than Imperial titan weapons but could it not be boosted to 7 or 8 shots? What’s more Orky that rolling bucket loads of dice with terrible to hit rolls?

Sounds fun. Or maybe 60cm?

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Snappa Belly Gun should probably have a frontal or fixed forward arc?

Intentionally not so. Conceptually, it's an anti-Terminator defensive weapon. Presumably it's on a slinky and can whip about the base of the Gargant?!? :spin

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Shouldn’t a Great Gargant have D6+6 Power Fields rather than the same as a regular Gargant?

Typo.

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Maybe the 0-1 limitations from the regular Ork list should be retained? E.g. Super-Zzap Gun 0-1 per a Gargant?

We've played about 7-8 games so far. Specialist builds haven't proven a problem so far.

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I’d stongly suggest making the missiles 0-1 per Gargant.

We're going to try spamming them in a game. Gargant capability quickly degrades if it's only got one gun left by turn 2.

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I’d prefer to limit the Supa-Stompa to a more limited choice of weapons than the Gargant. Giving it the same free choice of 3 Gargant weapons seems too good for it and to devalue the much more expensive Gargant.

Again, we've played a bunch of games and it's not proven an issue so far. They do make Supa-Stompas a bit better, much like a Warhound with more weapons choice is often better than the standard VMB+PBG Warhound.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
I’d stongly suggest making the missiles 0-1 per Gargant.

We're going to try spamming them in a game. Gargant capability quickly degrades if it's only got one gun left by turn 2.


I think the main strength of the gargants is their assault ability, especially in later turns, which doesn't degrade as much. The general counter being feeding them sacrificial cheap formations to stall them.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Agreed. And with their ability to add +5cm movement for engagements, that threat is enhanced (If they don't blow up in the end phase, ala my last game!). We'll be testing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:46 pm 
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add in that EUK tables seem to be allergic to roads, another factor to add in for testing. ;)

Apoc and I have done batreps with focusing on "free" weapons to push additional activations and taking advantage of roads and pushing the gargants to gain very zippy war engines (part of the earlier core changes to shore that up). Just putting it out there to get reviewed again.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:07 pm 
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EUK have invested in a bunch of plastic roads. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:08 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
GlynG wrote:
It would be great to get this finalised! I’m not bothered either way re: costing weapons or not.
Gatling Kannon seems considerably underpowered. 45cm and 6 x AP/AT5+ isn’t much good compared to the other options. Particularly on a slow unit that will often be doubling. I agree with the worse to hit rolls than Imperial titan weapons but could it not be boosted to 7 or 8 shots? What’s more Orky that rolling bucket loads of dice with terrible to hit rolls?

Sounds fun. Or maybe 60cm?

Nah! That’s just not what a Gatling Cannon is meant to be like - looking back at the Space Marine/Titan Legions era stats an Imperial Gatling Blaster had 4 shots at 75cm while an Ork Gatling Cannon had 8 (equally powerful) shots at 50cm. The Gatling Cannon on the old Great Gargant model is quite small and stubby too and has 8 barrels.

I haven’t used it in practice but to me 6 AP5+/AT5+ shots seems a poor choice compared to the other weapon options? Even if a Gargant used Push ‘Em Harder lads twice on a double it doesn’t have range to the enemy deployment zone turn 1 and ideally late game you’d probably rather engage than shoot with a Gargant if possible, so it’s shooting potential is rather limited. Could try testing 8 x AP5+/AT5+ and see how it feels comparatively?

It’s also worth mentioning that in previous editions the Gatling Cannon was specifically a Great Gargant only weapon and not an option for the regular Gargant. Also the background text in Titan Legions for the Gatling Cannon writes that it is “commonly mounted on the lower arm mount of Great Gargants” and that’s normally where I’ve seen it attached on old Great Gargant models. I don’t mind expanding the places it can be taken but having it as a Belly only gun causes unnecessary compatibility problems for some with nicely painted up older Great Gargants such as the one below. Can you change the weapon to be a Great Gargant arm weapon also please? Ideally make a separate better version of it when as a Great Gargant arm weapon with even more shots again? Supa Gatling Cannon or somesuch?
Attachment:
Gargant2.jpg
Gargant2.jpg [ 361.65 KiB | Viewed 95 times ]


Also please add the option for a Great Gargant to be armed with a Ripper Fist too! Older players may well have Great Gargants painted up nicely like the one above and currently the list is missing the option of a CC specialist arm weapon for them.

This could be a good larger modern proxy for a Great Gargant too but again has a weapon clearly specialising in CC:
Attachment:
Gargant-8mm-03.jpg
Gargant-8mm-03.jpg [ 367.96 KiB | Viewed 95 times ]

Given the Lifta-Droppa has +1TK(D3) plus a nasty shooting attack the Ripper Fist could have +2TK(D3) attacks? Plus the token Big Gun on it, as per the Mega-Choppa. I suspect the Lifta-Droppa would be a better choice tactically, but at least the Ripper Fist would be in the list for those with an appropriately modelled Great Gargant.

It would be handy to get an Epic-UK ruling on whether a model needs to be fully or partially on a road to claim the bonus too. Both this list and a titan legion could have lots of models wider that the common road sizes and it's unclear if they can use the bonus or not. Given it can have a signifiant effect on some games it seems better to rule it one way or the other rather than leave it up to players to discuss before game.


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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:22 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Gatling Kannon seems considerably underpowered. 45cm and 6 x AP/AT5+ isn’t much good compared to the other options. Particularly on a slow unit that will often be doubling. I agree with the worse to hit rolls than Imperial titan weapons but could it not be boosted to 7 or 8 shots? What’s more Orky that rolling bucket loads of dice with terrible to hit rolls?

I’d stongly suggest making the missiles 0-1 per Gargant.

I’d prefer to limit the Supa-Stompa to a more limited choice of weapons than the Gargant. Giving it the same free choice of 3 Gargant weapons seems too good for it and to devalue the much more expensive Gargant.
.


About the first one I am the responsible: the previous Gatling Cannon had about the same average damage as the Supa-Zzap, while doing a lot more to unarmored and the Supa-Zzap better against RA, so more or less balanced in damage with less range, so i told Mordoten to downpower it, which he did, a bit. So now, if the weapons are all in the same category and there is no plans to limit them, we need to put it back like how it were and make it more powerful to counter the reduced range.

I do not think we need limits to the Missiles: while for fluff makes sense to limit them, no one will fill a Gargant with missiles and i f they do it will under-perform latter and be mostly useless later. As long as they are One-Shot they will not pose any issue. Another issue would be with Supa-Stompas as they would become a better Deathstrike battery and very Un-Ork, so i think that limiting them for Great Gargants only is a way better option in my opinion

I also thought that it would be better than the Gargant with all of that firepower, but truth is that on OGBM Gargants were a better option always because of WE rules. Still i think they will need a point increase, as there are way better weapons out there than three Soopagunz.

jimmyzimms wrote:
So... double un-fun? ;)
Just curious but there's no requirement for 1/3rd allies in the EA system. Would 1/4 be better or some combination of reduced/increased upper formation size sit better with some?


I prefer if we are to limit air to go with a minimum of four Fightas than to add an artificial limit of 1/4. But i do not think that we need either, as Kyusschains said, they are needed and on the other side this list loses a lot more than others if going heavy on air, and as proof of that, almost no one has tried that with OGBM

Tiny-Tim wrote:
Couple of quick comments on the above discussion.

In previous versions of this list I found that the fortress mobz were the main winning element of the list. The gargants and Supa-Stompas would pound the enemy with the fortress mobz claiming objectives. This was ok, but the gargants were not IMO the focus of the list.


This is also why I have kept indirect fire out of the list. However I am listening to what is said above and we might bring something back in.


True that different groups find different solutions. I am interested to see the battles were you tested that, as per my opinion the strategy of Fortress get destroyed first and the Gargants isolated seems obvious and very effective, same as what happens when mixing Supa-Stompas with the other Gargants, but easier as Fortress get destroyed a lot easier.

Please keep restricting Indirect Fire, save for very limited weapons like the One-Shot Missiles.

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 Post subject: Re: Push to complete a Gargant list - 2019
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
I prefer if we are to limit air to go with a minimum of four Fightas than to add an artificial limit of 1/4. But i do not think that we need either, as Kyusschains said, they are needed and on the other side this list loses a lot more than others if going heavy on air, and as proof of that, almost no one has tried that with OGBM



If they are still needed, that's an issue with the list itself, which can be fixed. But, if people really don't want to take a full 6 formations of fightas, then the change of limiting it to one air selection per Gargant still permits the requisite air, but at least attempts to curb the potential for outrageous spamming.

And the list is still about Gargants, not about air power. If there's an issue with the functionality of the list, adding airplanes instead of doing something with the Gargants or smaller relations in the list feels like a clumsy and lazy fix that only detracts from the really strong and cool theme of Massive Stompy Orks!


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