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2017 - Ork Review

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:54 am 
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To add new uniqe rules to an already approved list isn't gonna work. "Infiltrate" would be a great addition though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
To add new uniqe rules to an already approved list isn't gonna work. "Infiltrate" would be a great addition though.

Agreed.

Ghaz is already bordering on the oversized as is
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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Hey, one outta four ain't bad.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:11 pm 
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I can clearly say that there will be no new special rules.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:00 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
I can clearly say that there will be no new special rules.


Thanks for that clarity. Does that also mean no changes to existing special rules, like Mob Rule?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:54 pm 
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As those are faction level rules for all Orks, that's a big a$$ change that effects every list.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:24 pm 
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I believe that's what Tiny-Tim means, yes.

It's much too late in the list's lifetime to introduce a new special rule or changes to existing ones. There isn't even a problem that these would address, at least not one perceived by a majority of players.

After a list is approved we should be looking at point adjustments and small changes to formations that will allow for less common units to become an option. Changing special rules or adding/removing units either kicks a list back down to experimental or invalidates a person's army they have collected. Both cases lead to an upset player base, which we shouldn't be in the business of cultivating.

If you want new special rules, new units, or less units start a new list.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm not particularly pushing for anything - just ruminating on how Warbands could be improved. If that's being disruptive, I apologise.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Is it still viable to voice ideas on how to address certain ideas upon improvement here? Strictly in Tiny-Tims terms I mean? Maybe start a new thread adressing only the most popular points that stand to reason within said terms?
So no new units or special rules but unit only unit and/or points adjustment with respect to the nature and theme of the list? Starting with Ghazkull maybe?

Would love to see this one progressing into a condensed and discussed form and at some point to test it on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:58 pm 
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I’m finally getting around to putting my thoughts here. Overall I feel orks are fairly balanced but maybe a smidge underpowered (particularly compared to some newer armies). Some units and formations are distinctly underpowered and could do with tweaking to allow a wider range of competitive choices.

Gunzwaggons are a bit underpowered and often effectively carriers and bullet shields for the Oddboyz which do the real killing. Armies composed of vast hordes of Gunzwagons are quite orky and described in the background but not that effective. I’d suggest costing the Blitz Brigade Oddboy at +25 but reducing the cost of the Blitz Brigade formation by 25 (big 50, ect). This would keep the regularly used upgraded formation the soon while boosting the Gunwagons on their own. Deth Koptas are a little underwhelming too but if the cost of the Blitz Brigade goes down this would fix them also. Flakwaggonz are relatively too good compared to Gunzwaggons at the moment and taken in large numbers, with only small amounts of regular gunzwaggans, which is a shame as AA units should be a bit more rare and in terms of models there have been vast numbers of gunwaggonz models made over the years (back from the SM/TL era when there were loads of different ones doing different things) and only relatively few flakkwaggonz from the Epic 40; and EpicA era. Dropping Flakkwagonz to CC6+ would be a small need that would help bring them into line.

Supa-Stompas similarly are overly good relative to the Stompas, but as a whole the commonly used formation is balanced enough. It’s just the relative internal balance that’s off and I’d suggest the Stompa formation be -25 and the Super-Stompa +25.

Kommandos aren’t worth taking while priced the same as Stormboyz: a formation of 6 for 125?

I’d be tempted to try Batlewaggons down to 25 to make them and a mechanised Warband a bit better a choice. If it’s felt this would make them too good (I’m not sure it would but testing could determine this) then yes slightly reducing their shooting could balance it. I wouldn’t remove a twin big-shoota as other suggested – as clearly the old model has two guns and the newer 40k ork vehicles have lots of guns. Instead I’d reduce it to having 2 x Big Shootas and drop the twin bit. It’d slightly speed up dice rolling to have them hit on the same as the boyz and nobz too.

Battle Kroozer: has anyone ever taken one? It’s just not appealing given it’s slow and steady nature (and how a higher strategy army with a spaceship of their own can bring it on turn 3 and potentially mean the battle is entirely over before it can attack). Perhaps it’s cost could drop as low as 100 the same as the Kill Kroozer (which isn’t that
great a choice itself)?

Just a small change but Fighta-Bommerz Tankbusta Rokkits should be fixed forward as is standard for other similar aircraft. Their eavy shootas are often in rotating turrets so should stay all round as now.
Skorchas are a bit too good and overly taken compared to the others. Drop their save to 6+? They would explode easily with big containers of fuel on them. OR make their shooting AP5+ but leave their armour and FF unchanged.
Adopt the Shield option for Battlefortresses from Epic-UK.

Feral Orks Steam Gargants should have fire arcs!

Do adopt the worse critical as used in the Epic UK list for Orkeosaruses - as before but alsdo it looses 1 extra DC. This would make a small difference to one it down and it has been found problematic at some Australian tournaments.

Feral Orks Orkeosauruses seem balanced to me (and I've run an 'Orkeosaurus Legion' list with 8 formations of them plus 3 Steam Gargants and Madboyz - 60 DC of 4+ reinforced at 3k) as it’s hard to get more than a draw using them. I certainly wouldn’t give them walker as they don’t need the boost! Also, they’re great lumbering stupid enraged beasts that obvious ‘walk’ but realistically seem much more liable to crash into a tree and hurt themselves than an Eldar titan say.

If there was support for a larger army change faster moving Orkeosauruses that were more expensive and/or weaker then maybe this could be tested but this would be a very significant change for a long standing army and I’m much more inclined to leave them be and just accept them often getting draws.

uberChris wrote:
In the Speedfreeks list, Biker Nobs should be an upgrade for "Kult of Speed" formations (and maybe Warbike Outrider formations?). It always seemed very odd to me that Nobs on Warbikes can't be added to formations of Warbikes.

I agree with this!

Thanks for your work Tim! I'll be interested to see what changes make it through here (and in any future Epic-UK revision)


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:11 am 
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Dave wrote:
It's much too late in the list's lifetime to introduce a new special rule or changes to existing ones.


What is the lifetime of a list, exactly? If we're resigned to the fact that a given list is so far into its lifetime that it's no longer able to change, then at what point should a list reach the end of its lifetime, and be allowed to die, to be replaced by something more up-to-date?

Orks (in 40k) have evolved a vast distance, thematically and mechanically, from the Orks that the Ghazghkull list was based on. Just food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:09 am 
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kadeton wrote:
Dave wrote:
It's much too late in the list's lifetime to introduce a new special rule or changes to existing ones.


What is the lifetime of a list, exactly? If we're resigned to the fact that a given list is so far into its lifetime that it's no longer able to change, then at what point should a list reach the end of its lifetime, and be allowed to die, to be replaced by something more up-to-date?

Orks (in 40k) have evolved a vast distance, thematically and mechanically, from the Orks that the Ghazghkull list was based on. Just food for thought.


Interesting point and something that others might have to enlighten me on. One of the things about the Ghazghkull list is that it has not changed and we have a base line to the original game. Also the list is still viable in different forms.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:09 pm 
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kadeton wrote:
Orks (in 40k) have evolved a vast distance, thematically and mechanically, from the Orks that the Ghazghkull list was based on. Just food for thought.


I don't agree, this is straight from 8th:

Quote:
The rest of the tribe is made up of Ork mobs. Many of these fight on foot, gathering in great numbers beneath the boss-pole of one Nob or another and following them howling into battle. Other Orks hurtle to war in smoke-belching Trukks, Buggies and Battlewagons, or sitting astride snarling Warbikes. Others still build huge and preposterous guns with which to shred their victims from a distance, or else charge madly into the fight spewing fire from dubious-looking flamethrowers. Squadrons of hurtling aircraft, convoys of looted tanks, clanking, saw-fisted walkers and batteries of bizarre field artillery - all of these mobs and many more can be found within most Ork tribes to one degree of another.


The Ghaz list has all of that with the exception of the references to Tankbustas/Lootas/Flash Gits and Burnas.

I also don't agree mechanically either, 'Ere We Go makes them good at charging which EA does with Power of the Waaagh! And Mob Rule bumps their morale when numbers are high, which EA has with an identically named rule.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Yeah it's really hard to argue that EA orks don't resemble modern 40k orks. The small differences in units are for the most part too fiddly at the scale of EA to be differentiated. As in, they're there when you 'zoom in', just not at company level D6 mechanics. At the very least, the delta is so small in comparison to say Tau 3rd phase to 8th edition Tau (which to be fair is 6th phase so...) or perhaps Ad Mech Knight world which is deliberately modelled on older fluff as to be a cogent argument. There's a bunch of internal balance that can be tweaked, a bunch of which I found myself in agreement with GlynG above (which is like Elvis and Bigfoot having coffee at a Denny's dinner). But on the whole, orks are pretty successful in maintaining the vibe. They're the proverbial 'sharks of 40k epic' in that they've had little need to evolve ;D

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:15 pm 
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I think the only notable differences between 40k Orks and EA Orks is that there is no analogous vehicle to match the role of the 40k Battlewagon (I'd peg it as being some sort of 5+ RA AV with three variants similar in role to the EA "battlewagon" (which 40k calls a "Trukk") we know and love, with double the Transport capacity).

Arguably the various bigger Walkers (Stompa and up) would want to pick up transport capacities to fit the same niches as their 40k equivalents (Gorkanought and up).

Other than that, all units in EA are broadly analogous in role to something in 40k I think, even if the names sometimes differ.

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