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Gargant Big Mob list development

 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Stompas stat line always seemed like a terrible representation of what they actually are. I mean a stompa should obliterate a landraider. I'm with Paradox, they should be classed as knights (DC2). Even increasing the unit size to 4 still doesn't make them attractive. Also someone else's suggestion to give them the ability to take an OddBoy... sounds amazing. they will certainly see more play then. All the talk with the warhorde list needing a boost a stat change for stompas would help across the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Comparison pics of supa stompas. Space Marine era, Epic Armageddon era, Vanguard era.
(Some conversion of the first two, e.g. EA one has buzzsaw from a Crusher).
Body mass is similar, the Crusher being a little higher up due to legs.
More pics here:
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/20 ... ushas.html

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:09 pm 
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atension wrote:
Stompas stat line always seemed like a terrible representation of what they actually are. I mean a stompa should obliterate a landraider. I'm with Paradox, they should be classed as knights (DC2).


Don't use the 40k Stompa for comparison. The Epic Stompas predate it by a fair way and when they made the 40k Stompa they increased the comparative size of the thing to other units and it's more equivalent to the epic Super-Stompa.

I'd like to see Stompas as more viable to use - and better as a unit of their own rather than just being bought to get much better Super-stompas. I think the OGBM list should just use the standard Stompa stats though, just adjusting units size and/or cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Yup that's correct. EA Super Stompa == 40k Stompa

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Ohh, good to know. What are your thoughts on the oddboy upgrade though. I mean if a battlewagon can get it surely a stompa could.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:28 am 
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Het guys! I'm back to working on this list pretty soon! A summer cabin and a new boat has me occupied right now. I think an oddboy upgrade is a great addition to this unit!

There will also be some changing of the Gargant to support ratio in this list (not a big one).

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:02 am 
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So the current 40K Gorganaught is more like the old Epic Stompa. Something like an Ork version of an Imperial Knight? Bigger than a dreadnought though smaller than the current Ork Stompa.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:05 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Het guys! I'm back to working on this list pretty soon! A summer cabin and a new boat has me occupied right now. I think an oddboy upgrade is a great addition to this unit!

There will also be some changing of the Gargant to support ratio in this list (not a big one).


I'm in for a bunch of playtests mate ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:17 am 
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Welcome back, Mordoten, glad to see you back. I also have to come back too, i have been a few months without Epic and i am missing it a lot.

atension wrote:
Also someone else's suggestion to give them the ability to take an OddBoy... sounds amazing. they will certainly see more play then.


I was the one that mentioned it and regret it each time is talked about, as i did it as an example for a bad change for Stompas.

But, since then, the more i think about it, the more i think in a similar way to this I read from Nealhunt, about the shooty Ork units that are usually discussed about (Stompas, Gunwagons, Big Gunz, and to a certain degree Deth Koptas too):

nealhunt wrote:
Well, I'm on record as being a big fan of Big Gunz, so I can't exactly back down now...  

===

Big Gunz are not as good as IG Fire Support.  They're not supposed to be, and I think if there were any Ork units that could go toe-to-toe with IG for firepower that would be a mistake.

Orks are an attrition force specializing in assaults while IG (typically) is a "hunker down and shoot" style force.  Because of the difference in styles, Ork Big Gunz fill a much different role in the Ork force than Fire Support in the IG.  This is part of the problem with cross-army comparisons.  It's not that Big Gunz are as good as IG Fire Support on a point-per-point comparison in a vacuum.  It's that to the Ork army they are as valuable as the Fire Support Platoon is to the IG.

Another way to put it is that IG have tons of firepower options to replace the Fire Support if they want.  Orks don't.  By design the Orks have to pay a premium for that scarce resource.   "It's not a bug; it's a feature."

nealhunt wrote:
(Nicodemus @ Oct. 26 2007,07:30)

Is all that great?  No.  Big Gunz are limited.  In many ways they are a niche unit as rpr mentioned.

The general problem with niche unit is that all units have to have abilities and points that are balanced in their optimum use.  If you improve a unit so it becomes generally useful, then when you go back to the niche in which it excels, the unit is overly powerful.

In this case, it might not be a true case of the unit being  unbalanced if allowed outside its niche.  To my persepctive, it's as much about the flavor of the Ork army.  Orks aren't supposed to have "park and fire" units as a core function of the army so their flexibility is limited.  If you improve Big Gunz to the point they are useful in broad application the army might still be balanced overall, but the Gunz definitely will be broadly used.  The army's just not supposed to be about that kind of play.


So i think it would be better to keep the changes small or not change at all and leave the changes for more shooty Ork lists, like this one or a Bad Moonz one if we ever see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:45 pm 
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@Abetillo,
Yeah that is a good point also. BUT what's the niche for stompas. They are slow and their firepower isn't anything special they'd be good in an assult but they are slow and AVs so not easily delivered and quite avoidable. Is their role a garrisoning formation that are hard to crack? They would do alright at that but be quite expensive. Very easy to break in numbers less than 5 and too costly for a "big" formation. In the Ghaz list they are just a necessity for access to supa-stompas. I don't really see their niche. If they were allower an oddboy then your opponent would have to deal with them they wouldn't be a unit you could break and forget or ignore. They'd actually be useful to take. Oddboy on wagons are nice for their speed but are very easily killed. I'm sure that's part of the design to a degree too. But I can't say they could go toe to toe shooting with IG. Oddboy are very pricy and generally only used as zaps. Zaps are great but also a little situational. Soopa guns are only good taken in pairs and that would make for a crazy expensive formation. A big formation of 6 costing 400 points plus the oddboys =500 points that's almost 2 supa stompas . I don't think the list will out shoot guard at that price. There is also the argument that not everything needs to have a good usefullness:point ratio but these poor little guys are so very cool looking and so rarely used in EA.I'd love them to take a more central role in a list. I agree mucking with the stats gets troublesome for units overlapping several lists especially approved lists. Allow in them an upgrade though in the gargant list should be acceptable. Gargant list should be full of mekboys throwing crazy fun and explody weapons on things.

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