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Daemons and relative power

 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Or do lke the Daemon World list does and use the stats for horrors which is one 3+ FF rather than flamers....

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:31 pm 
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I use daemonettes regularly in my BL lists and find first strike very useful. Functionally it can be similar to 2x ff attacks in that if you hit you take away one of the opponents attacks before it can be used.

They're great with Teleporting terminators as you're not slowing them down and the daemons soak up hits. Related to my first point, FS can allow you to pick a dangerous unit and take it out of the fight before it has the chance to do damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Hey guys, the "Flamer Problem" still exists, roughly a year later. Is there any idea to tune the daemons a bit more?

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Largo_W wrote:
Hey guys, the "Flamer Problem" still exists, roughly a year later. Is there any idea to tune the daemons a bit more?


novemberrain wrote:
Or do lke the Daemon World list does and use the stats for horrors which is one 3+ FF rather than flamers....


Still the easiest fix by far.

Also the models are basically the same (I clipped the little flames off the Flamer arms for mine but thats not necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:32 pm 
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novemberrain wrote:
Or do lke the Daemon World list does and use the stats for horrors which is one 3+ FF rather than flamers....


Still the easiest fix by far.[/quote]

I think it sounds like an elegant solution. Probably requires buy-in from those owning the Chaos lists and some playtesting efforts (not necessarily in that order).


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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:53 pm 
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I had to go and check the Daemon World list again to be sure. It uses the same 2xFF4+ profile for Flamers as other lists do, it's just that Horrors are the 'basic' trooper of the Tzeentch Hordes.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:16 pm 
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It is a small change but brings the flamers back to the other units. Considering you get a fearless, invulnerable save Dire Avenger at 15pts should be enough to put them on ff 3+.

What are the regulations to get this change in? Can't be that hard after discussing this issue for two full years now, can it?

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Simple. Batreps with the change. No batreps, no change. :tut

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:55 am 
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Wouldn't it be enough with two years of discussion and some theory-hammer?
- No one uses any other daemons than Flamers...
- Average summoning 4 daemons scores (approx.):
Flamers: 4 hits + 3 supporting + 2 counterattack.
Bloodletters 4 hits + 0 support + 0 counterattack.
Daemonettes: 3 hits + 0 support + 0 counterattack.
Plaguebearers 2 hits + 0,5 support + 0,5 counterattack.
(You summon, assault and lose one (unless you have to get into CC...), retain and assault, then you get a bit shot at, lose one and assaulted (in witch you get to FF again unless you're stupid (or your opponent is in case of BL.)
- The proposed change would make Flamers: 3 hits + 2 support + 2 counterattack.
- Saves are almost irrelevant unless you are targeted by barrage or lack FF attacks since you are able to keep your precious flamers guarded by TS, rhinos and marines.
I guess I might be totally wrong at this... :)


Another take on the "the 4 types of deamons will never be equal" is more radical. Why have 4 marked types + one undivided? Why not make a few different deamons based on "function" in the game? For example:
CC-daemons: 15 cm, 4+, 4+, -, Blades and Claws: Assault Weapons EA +1, Inv Save, Summon (1)
FF-daemons: 15 cm, 5+, 6+, 3+, Flames, Flies and Screams: small arms, Inv Save, Summon (1)
Daemonic Beasts: 20 cm, 4+, 3+, Claws, Fangs and Bad Breath: Assault Weapons, Inv Save, Summon (1), Infiltrators, First Strike

It would be simpler for the players knowing what you were using and facing, and the problem of balancing 4 cc daemons and 1 ff daemon in a game where FF is King wouldn't be a problem any longer. Of course, this would need some playtesting, and if it turns out to be too powerful that you always can choose your type of daemon freely, the stats could easily be adjusted a bit.
I understand that it is a major point to most players that the old names of the daemons are kept, I was just thinking a little outside the box. And it wouldn't be much of a problem to write somewhere in the army list that CC-daemons represents Bloodletters etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:10 am 
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Sound reasoning. The only hitch is the change would require almost a dozen lists to change at the same time. No easy feat without some evidence to back it up prior to being implemented like Jimmy says. Keep in mind this will put a kink in the already established lists that have been balanced using one daemon type only.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:20 am 
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Thanks :) I'm painfully aware of that, although I think most of the work needs to be done in the Cult armies.
But I really like the idea with generic minor daemons in the Red Corsairs list, and this is somewhat an extension of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:30 pm 
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As a long time Chaos player I got to say that generic minor daemons feels kind of wrong.

As a game designer I can see the appeal.

Probably too late to do anything about the stats now, but flamers are way too good as is. Maybe if it cost 2 summoning points to summon them? That way you don't need to mess with the stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
Probably too late to do anything about the stats now, but flamers are way too good as is. Maybe if it cost 2 summoning points to summon them? That way you don't need to mess with the stats.


I'm not so sure it's too late to do anything about them

I think the problem is twofold really, I typically use tzeentch flavoured Black Legion, and as well as 'teh awesum' flamers, if I need some CC punch, I can summon daemonic beasts, so in choosing flamers I'm not really giving up anything, whereas if you're using another mark, your daemons effectively do what the beasts do already, admittedly a little better in most cases but they aren't infiltrators so struggle to get into BTB, plus their firefight is mostly non-existent

I'd like to see something like flamers going to a single FF3+ attack, or more radically, disappearing after resolving the engagement to prevent supporting fire shenanigans, which they do, orders of magnitude more effectively.... so currently they have joint highest damage output (tied with bloodletters) and also the (almost unique) ability to use that high damage output to support fire, which is key to effective engagements in EA

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:15 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Mrdiealot wrote:
Probably too late to do anything about the stats now, but flamers are way too good as is. Maybe if it cost 2 summoning points to summon them? That way you don't need to mess with the stats.


I'm not so sure it's too late to do anything about them

I think the problem is twofold really, I typically use tzeentch flavoured Black Legion, and as well as 'teh awesum' flamers, if I need some CC punch, I can summon daemonic beasts, so in choosing flamers I'm not really giving up anything, whereas if you're using another mark, your daemons effectively do what the beasts do already, admittedly a little better in most cases but they aren't infiltrators so struggle to get into BTB, plus their firefight is mostly non-existent

I'd like to see something like flamers going to a single FF3+ attack, or more radically, disappearing after resolving the engagement to prevent supporting fire shenanigans, which they do, orders of magnitude more effectively.... so currently they have joint highest damage output (tied with bloodletters) and also the (almost unique) ability to use that high damage output to support fire, which is key to effective engagements in EA


The point about support fire is a good one, and by itself justifies a pretty major nerf.

I also think the daemonic beasts are too good. A friend who plays Lost and the Damned never use anything else.

That being said, I think making the cost 2 points to summon solves a lot of problems. It gets really harsh to summon (roll 3 summoning points? You only get 1 Flamer/Daemonic Beast) without having augmented summoning in the formation, which by itself usually a major investment (especially in the Black Legion list.)

The other half of the problem is that the other minor daemons just isn't very good, except for defensive purposes, or if you've managed to get yourself dangerously close to an enemy formation and can engage from there.

Not really sure how to solve that one to be honest. Maybe if Bloodletters and Daemonettes got Infiltrate or 20cm move? Haven't played enough with plaguebearers to know if they're pretty good at their present stats, but I suspect they are (superior save + FF). Of course, if we're going to mess with some daemon stats we might as well mess with all of them. I could honestly live with Flamers getting just 1 attack FF 4+ and 4+ save.

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 Post subject: Re: Daemons and relative power
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Since the Traitor Titan Legions use both Daemonic Beasts and Lesser Daemons, changed the stats of the deamons there a bit. These stats might be more balanced both between the powers and the lesser daemons and the beasts.


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