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Thousand Sons 6.0

 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:35 pm 
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Markconz wrote:


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Conclusions
So I failed to break through the Marine defences this time, instead being defeated handily. Firelords were a disappointment as usual, and Warp Palace was unable to generate enough damage for the points. The Armour formations worked surprisingly well even with the slower Deceivers I thought. Andrew's choice of Tactical and Devastator formations also seemed to work better for him. Next time!


The question about the warp palace generating enough damage for it's points is a good one. Let's focus on that one for a while, shall we?

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:57 pm 
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Hi Guys,

after some chat with Roboshadow and the stuff Markconz wrote in his battle reports I decided to make the following changes:

Greater Spire: Beam of greater Power keep it 60cm but instead of 5+ to hit make it 4+.

The Greater Spire just needed a little bit more for it's bucks. And so did the warp palace since they share the same gun.

Deciver formation Added a Deceiver formation 4 for 275 points. Simple Formation with a spamming protection.


New Terminator Stats:

Thousand Sons Terminators INF 15cm 4+ 4+ 3+
Reinforced Armour. Thick Rear Armour. Fearless, Teleport,
Combi-Bolters (15cm) Small Arms EA (+1)
Power Weapons (bc) Assault Weapons, EA (+1), MW

They lost the magic, should be fluffy now.

The Champion has of corse his added Daemon Artifact (bc) Assault Weapons EA(+1) FS

Dreadclaws: Transport a formation containing only infantry units and Chaos Dreadnoughts in Dreadclaws

Droped the rubric rule for now. Till some one comes up with a worthwhile rule.

Hope you like it, what do you thing.

Cheers,

Ole


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:24 pm 
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Dorsn't dropping the rubic and giving them access to dreadclaws take away their big drawback of being a slow army??

Now they are as fast as the black legion (being able to march), can pod in all over the table, have access to the best demons in the game AND have 4+ RA.

You also gave them deciever unit which gives them good AA coverage.

What weaknesses are left??

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:42 pm 
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Hmm inclined to think Rubric should stay myself, agree with Mordoten that they need some weaknesses.

Also thinking that Deceiver Formation AA 8x6+ seems a bit too powerful?

Firelords. I don't think these are competitive selections at present. The models have two rear turrets in addition to front facing guns, so I'd suggest giving them some 360 degree AA, they are dogmeat at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:43 am 
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Hi Ole..

Brave move on dropping the rubric rule…. The UK have manage to live without it..

Deceiver Formation is nice, but I would have dropped the Decevier from the upgrade option though, like the UK list has done. Since this would mean that the AA bubble is on the Deceiver Formation…

Firelords in our games have done OK….but yeah have not tested them of late, so will need to run them again….

Will poke Roboshadow about getting some testing in for you on the changes…. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:48 am 
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I should check out EUK list and see differences...

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:27 pm 
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Thank you for your comments guys.

mordoten wrote:
Dorsn't dropping the rubic and giving them access to dreadclaws take away their big drawback of being a slow army??

The Rubric only effected Thousand sons marines, there always where plenty of formation in this list, who weren’t effected. Scarab Occult, Thousand Sons Armour, Silver Tower Company where always able to march. No less then 3 out of 5 Retinues. And in the support formations Sekhmet Disc Riders and Neophyte Class 2 out of 3 formations. Which means the majority of the army could march. That rule goes way back. And I haven’t read a complain about a fast moving force.

The dread claws where there since at least 2.0 which was published back in the fanatic magazines. I just changed the wording because someone complains they have been miss leading.

mordoten wrote:
What weaknesses are left??

Expensive formations with no fire power themselves and glascannon support.

Markconz wrote:
Also thinking that Deceiver Formation AA 8x6+ seems a bit too powerful?

That is something to be seen in the reports.

Markconz wrote:
Firelords. I don't think these are competitive selections at present. The models have two rear turrets in addition to front facing guns, so I'd suggest giving them some 360 degree AA, they are dogmeat at the moment.

Firebirds are a corsslist unit which I can’t change all by myself.

PFE200 wrote:
Brave move on dropping the rubric rule…. The UK have manage to live without it..

I still like the purpose of this rule but it is very hard justifying in the 6mm scale. So unless someone has a great Idea it is out.

PFE200 wrote:
Deceiver Formation is nice, but I would have dropped the Decevier from the upgrade option though, like the UK list has done. Since this would mean that the AA bubble is on the Deceiver Formation…

Maybe your are right about that. We will see. Maybe you can run it against some air dominant list.

Markconz wrote:
I should check out EUK list and see differences...

There are still more then most think.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:42 pm 
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Another report up...

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31861

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:11 am 
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Hi Robshadow what is your optionen on the deciver formation. With all that first strike and stuff. Are they alright coming in 4?

Cheers

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:09 pm 
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Ole wrote:
Hi Robshadow what is your optionen on the deciver formation. With all that first strike and stuff. Are they alright coming in 4?

Cheers

Ole


From the person who face them..I currently didn't have a issue with the formation..since they can be broken by range shooting, although I haven't gone CC yet with them..so some-more testing and we will see how it goes....

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:04 am 
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Hehehe, this is the list I'd use....


Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Thousand Sons (6.1.1)
==================================================

RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [305]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Dreadclaw, Daemonic Pact
RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [305]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Dreadclaw, Daemonic Pact
RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [305]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., Dreadclaw, Daemonic Pact
DOOMWING FIGHTERS [150]
3 Doomwing Fighters
DOOMWING FIGHTERS [150]
3 Doomwing Fighters
RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [305]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., 3 Rhino
RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [305]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., 3 Rhino
RUBRIC FELLOWSHIP [305]
Sorcerer, 6 Thousand Sons Marines units., 3 Rhino
DOOMWING FIGHTERS [150]
3 Doomwing Fighters
DEVASTATION CLASS CRUISER [150]
THOUSAND SONS DAEMON POOL [120]
8 Lesser Daemons (Horror, Screamer, Flamer and Daemonic Beast units)
AHRIMAN'S CHOSEN [450]
Sorcerer, 9 Thousand Sons Marines units. All have the Teleport ability

Drop the ship first turn and TP in the chosen... how do you deal with 27 RA fearless marines sitting 10cm away on the first turn before you've activated anything not to mention the 11 flamers you can summon in as needed for support. Doomwings to help mop up and the rhino mounted Rubrics can casually saunter in and collect the victory points.... GG. This list is bonkers!

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:03 pm 
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atension wrote:
Hehehe, this is the list I'd use....

Drop the ship first turn and TP in the chosen... how do you deal with 27 RA fearless marines sitting 10cm away on the first turn before you've activated anything not to mention the 11 flamers you can summon in as needed for support. Doomwings to help mop up and the rhino mounted Rubrics can casually saunter in and collect the victory points.... GG. This list is bonkers!


Personally I'd choose turn 1 for my strike cruiser thus forcing most of your army to come on turn 2.Try to deal with the 3 ground formations with my terminator air assaults/drop pod marines, recycling them for turn 2 and 3 to go after any formations or objectives needed to win the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:31 am 
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With strategy 5+, even when fighting marines there is a 50% chance of getting the Space cruiser on in turn #1 and also a 50% chance of going first . . . the kind of game that I hate personally since it literally depends on the single throw of a dice and has much less skill involved.

However, against all other lists, this strategy is almost guaranteed and hence very powerfull. While Drop lists tend to risk putting a few formations at the mercy of the enemy army, with that number of RA4+ units in place at the start, the strategy is likely to be more robust than others since they are likely to be dropped in positions where they can initiate assaults to cripple their opponents.

I find it interesting to compare this list with the E-UK version, which currently enjoys a 46% win rate (vs 30% loss and 24% draw) over 83 games. I suggest that this list is actually more powerfull than the E-UK version,
  • Strategy 5+ vs strategy 4+
  • Dreadclaws available, making the army able to reach any part of the table far more easily than their Rhino transported brethren.
  • Teleport awarded to Ahriman's chosen, which increases the number of units that can be dropped (and makes this strategy feasible)
  • The Sorcerer character added to a TS unit adds a MW EA, which is considerably more powerfull than the Cabal of Sorcerers in E:A.

Personally I think TS 'marines' with 4+RA is OTT anyway, though it was adopted because the original list arrived at a time when people were unwilling to consider other options (5+RA for example). The argument is that their lack of firepower redresses this, though I suggest that they ought to have some limited firepower (being a 'fluffyphobe' I cannot recite chapter and verse as to where this was the case). However it is true that the TS marines do not have TRA making them vulnerable to cross-fire - which dropping formations in the teeth of the enemy should encourage. I look forwards to some brave soul testing this strategy out . . .
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:27 pm 
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Great that there is some discussion. I personally see this lists development as an open source project. But unfortunately there is very little discusion that may be due to the fact that there are very little 1kSons player or simply not the loudest ones. So I can only work with the little what happens here. And if no one complains, everyone is happy, are they not? I also expect the Steve54 and the committee to tell me what they want to have changed once this list goes live.

As I wrote in my first post already, I would like to help an almost finished list come across the bar. If I would develop a list form scratch I would do it like captPiett has done it with the Emperor's Children. And call it Sons of the Cyclops. A Chaos Cult marine list is not an easy build after all.
I’ve read a lot in the old Thousand Sons threats to make an opinion about an list development as old as this list. (E.g. Dreadclaws had been in the list since she was published in Fanatic Magazine 56. I haven’t seen a complain about it until now.)

True your example list looks very strong at first, but has little Titan killer/MW and as soon they landed they are very slow. The Crossfire then reduces them to 6 Stand Martens without weapons. Your necrons should have no problem with them.
In my opinion there are combinations in many lists, which are very one-sided but are possible. For example Pure Space Marine Terminators lists. But if the list is so designed that such things are no longer possible, much versatility will be lost.


Ginger wrote:
[*]The Sorcerer character added to a TS unit adds a MW EA, which is considerably more powerfull than the Cabal of Sorcerers in E:A.[/list]


The difference is:
The Uk Cabal of Sorcerers is Inf and has Commander, Daemonic Pact, Invulnerable Save, Leader
The Thousand Sons Sorcerer is CH and has the MW FF attack and Leader and Commander.

The build in MW FF makes it up for the Daemonic pact even if they Thousand Sons Sorcerer have the better save, don’t you thing?

Ginger wrote:
Personally I think TS 'marines' with 4+RA is OTT anyway, though it was adopted because the original list arrived at a time when people were unwilling to consider other options (5+RA for example). The argument is that their lack of firepower redresses this, though I suggest that they ought to have some limited firepower (being a 'fluffyphobe' I cannot recite chapter and verse as to where this was the case).


That is sadly not my choice to make, because the Stats are fixed in the BL list. The fluff is going in the drain right now, with the release of Wrath of Magnus.

Keep it coming guys.

Ole

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 6.0
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:47 pm 
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I totally accept that changing the 4+RA armour would be a 'brave' action that would need a total retest, which is highly unlikely at this point.

Changing to the E-UK version is perhaps more likely but also a 'brave' choice. The point I was trying to make was that these factors are additional buffs to a list that is already better than many according to the E-UK stats. Daemonic Pact is worth 25 points, but in a list that lacks MW I suggest that the extra attack is possibly worth 30-40 points.

One small point, I think the above list is under costed by 150 points because each Rubric formation needs 6x Dreadclaws costing 30 points rather than only 5 points. However a Doomwing formation can be dropped with little impact.


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