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Red Corsairs Moving Forward

 Post subject: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:40 pm 
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So thought a new topic would be in order to try to condense discussion a bit before I get cracking on a new list version, I'm keen to get opinions and discussion on the following things, no right or wrong answers here, but I'm afraid I tend to approach things from a theme+game balance trump fluff, so cite IA12 or HH3 all you like, but I'd rather avoid list bloat.... equally however I'd rather not invalidate people's painstakingly collected, converted and painted armies if possible!

Spacecraft + Drop Pods

so on to the first topic, compared to the black legion and cult lists, the red corsairs have access to an int1+ strike cruiser, and deathwind style drop pods, while it fits the theme of the list as a force of raiders in a shock assault trying to nab supplies, material and captives, I think when coupled with the ability of a formation to summon daemons prior to engagement I think we're straying into too powerful territory.... currently at 5pts per unit I think they're just too cheap, with a chosen formation you can get the deathwind into play for 230 points or 255 with a pact.... I propose upping the cost to 10 points per unit... the other option which I'm less keen on at this stage, would be to drop the strike cruiser to int2+

Thunderhawks

now this is a point of contention for the list, many feel they are overpriced at 250 points, and tbh they probably are, but I'll say at this point that making them fearless is not on the table, it just makes them too good, as I said before, the red corsairs list has super effective drop capabilities, as well as a number of kickass (and not bank-breaking) loadouts for the thunderhawk (termies, either vanilla or with daemon prince, bikes, raptors, fearless cult marines) all of these factors synergise extremely well and make the air assault+drop list very potent indeed, probably much more destructive than the codex equivalent.... I'm not keen on sticking thunderhawks into the air section as I think a very heavy air-assault style really fits the theme of the list, but I don't want it being overpowered, I've posted up that even without ATSKNF the chaos thunderhawk is still a very potent aircraft, right up there with the landa and vampire, so there is no way it's dropping below 200, if it drops at all

Cult Marines + Daemoms

Another point of contention, I see cult marines in the red corsairs being relatively rare, like non-aligned chaos marines are in the cult lists (well, the EUK cult lists) I like the touch of flavour they bring, as well as access to god-specific units, but I can't see them being present en-masse in a raiding force either..... I'd like to explore options to limit them to a single god which may not be popular, alternatively I'd like to restrict their transport options so they can't use thunderhawks or possibly drop pods.... what are people's thoughts on cult marines being able to access proper daemons for their god rather than the generic 'lesser daemons' available to the regular marines?

in addition do we fiddle with daemonic pacts? should they lose the free daemon? be more expensive? my view for the list is that daemons should be something to boost them a little but not the focus of the list like they can be under BL or the variants.... I think removing the free daemon from the pact would help here....

Titans

As a raiding force I really don't see how titans fit the theme? 1000-tonne slowly striding behemoths just don't fit the lightning-strike feel of the list.... I'd like to remove them and focus on the marines, the removal of the inspiring warhounds would go a long way to reducing the potency of the list IMO given what a force-multiplier they are, and it's an easier justification losing the bigger titans as they're much more rarely used anyway

so what are people's thoughts on the above? all viewpoints welcome! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:55 pm 
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I agree with the points increase for the drops pods. That or make them dreadclaws (no deathwind, no scatter).

Thunderhawk are definitely over costed as they as incredibly volnerable to BMs provided you won't budge on the fearless.

Cult marines in THawks I don't really have a problem with.

Daemons I'd keep the way they are and not go overboard.

There is a discrepancy between the drones in this list and the drones in the Death guard list. May want to talk with Steve to homogenized the stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:03 pm 
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I feel 250 is too high for the thawk, but i've not tested it. If you are concerned about thawk+terminator spam you could move terminators out of core, or move thawks into air 1/3

Ditch the titans :spin

Cult marines … keep in mind they unlock the god specific demon engines, which are one of the attractions of the list, so limiting them too much is a bit dull.
oops, you covered that already

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:15 pm 
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atension wrote:
Thunderhawk are definitely over costed as they as incredibly volnerable to BMs provided you won't budge on the fearless.


no more vulnerable than the eldar vampire, and I've not seen calls to make that fearless....

my point is that in this list the thunderhawks are worth more due to how well they synergise

for example, when I was first writing the imperial fists list, I had assault terminators in there (CC2+, no FF, no shooting) however without the thunderhawk in the list, I felt they were easily worth ~50 points less than regular terminators as they had to teleport exclusively and if I lost the strategy roll or failed to activate them (which happened numerous times) they were a 400 (chaplain!) point albatross who couldn't even shoot to prep something nearby.... however in the black templars list, with the thunderhawk to make sure they can get where they need to go, they easily justify being 350 as they hit even harder than vanilla terminators

it's the same with this list, the thunderhawk is worth more IMO because it fits so damn well with everything else.... maybe 250 is steep, but let's evaluate it on its own merits for a while, if the list was losing all its games then yeah sure, let's tinker, but at the moment it's at the top end, power wise

thanks for the feedback, @Apoc, I don't want the list to feel too 'kitchen-sink' is all, point taken on god specific vehicles

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:59 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
no more vulnerable than the eldar vampire, and I've not seen calls to make that fearless....

my point is that in this list the thunderhawks are worth more due to how well they synergise


Probably because the Vamp's 200, not 250.

We played a lot of games with the Coraairs when Ruth was playing regularly, at least 20 with a few reports out there. They didn't synergize any more than a SM Thawk in my opinion. They're a one shot weapon without fearless, 250 points of an air assault is too steep.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:33 am 
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How are they a one shot weapon without fearless - vampires, slave bringers and even orcas certainly aren't.

At the recent Euros I took 2 loaded vampires - none were destroyed on the ground due to BMS. 1 was shot and critted on the ground, 1 was lost to hack downs but none to anything ATSKNF would have affected

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:01 am 
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Im ok with switching to dreadclaws instead of drop pods, that will reduce to potential for over powered drop assaults a little.

The Warhound should definitely lose Inspiring. I have no drama with removing the larger titans, I've never felt that they add much to the list anyway.

Cult troops I would really like to see stay as they are one of the main reasons I was attracted to the list to begin with. As has been said previously they are required to take their god specific demon engines and without them the list becomes quite dull.

I don't see why a Thunderhawk should be fearless but as I've never used one I can't say one way or the other!

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:36 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
How are they a one shot weapon without fearless - vampires, slave bringers and even orcas certainly aren't.


In the games we played they took a BM coming in, if they survived the assault they were destroyed by being shot again while an enemy was within 15cm. The same thing would work against any 2DC AC, thise are one-shot air assaults in my book. Unless you have more activations or are facing little AA they're not coming back.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:36 pm 
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I'm well aware of the BM mechanic destroying them, in practice it rarely happens though.

I've taken a 2 vampire list to 3 recent tournaments so 26 loaded vampires going in -
3 shot down going in
2 killed on the assault
2 killed to hack downs in assault resolution
8 shot down empty on subsequent turns
0 killed on ground by BMS

If your taking an air assault list then
- take a good number of activations
- 4 tasks during turn 1 1) suppress ground AA 2) BM targets 3) break enemy activations before they activate so your air assaults can be last activations 4) provide ground AA bubble to ward of interception (more important for eldar)
- air assaults should be last activations against prepped targets.

Red Corsairs combine the best bits of the SM+CSM lists to be a really powerful air assault and drop list, that their t hawks don't have ATSKNF is inconsequential if used as an air assault should be

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Lets test it out and see. I like the ideas you present Kyuss. My in progress Iron Warriors are being designed to do triple duty with this list. I'd not worry about the lack of titans if dropped, a collection easily crosses 95% with the other chaos infantry based lists anyways so you're nit invalidating anyone's models. It would be nice to keep some of the demon bits like evil salad chopping monsters. Perhaps each force can optional pick a single god to align with and thus have limited cult formation access?

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:03 pm 
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looking at the structure of the list, I think the cult marines are inherently self-limiting as they're all support choices so I'm in no hurry to go down the mono-god route yet! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:40 pm 
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mehhhhh (wants to have excuse to paint more minis) ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:55 pm 
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I don't get where "thawks need fearless" comes from. Most other races' air transports are more vulnerable and many tend to find it harder to get lots of activations. I can see how you might think DC2 is a problem if you're coming from the spoilt luxury of codex thawks with ATSKNF, but as Steve says it actually very rarely is a problem.

I don't think I've ever lost a vampire to BMs on the ground unless I have been forcing the enemy to deal with it (i.e. sitting on an objective in turn 4). My vampire raiders frequently die in the assault, because they act as shields and don't have as good armour as a thawk. The enemy just quite simply never has the opportunity to get within 15cm and plink it (because the air assault is almost always your last activation), or even if things haven't worked out so you out-activate your opponent, they usually have other things they need to be doing with the activations they've saved than exacting retribution on a unit that has already delivered its cargo.

In the expo I also had 2 loaded vampires. 3 got shot down on approach (1 was a crit), 1 broke after assault but disengaged fine, I think 1 died in the assault to a crit. None were even targeted whilst on the ground. I have had them die occasionally in the past, but the only ones I can remember were where they were on the ground to contest objectives and thus available to be targeted in turn 4. Which IMO is fair enough - they should be plinkable when exposed like that - IMO the thawk too good in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
in practice it rarely happens though.


Maybe for you, but it's a regular occurrence over here. Saying it rarely happens for you doesn't change that nor change my opinion that after 20 games 250 for a THawk is too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Red Corsairs Moving Forward
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:10 pm 
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How does it happen? Do you assault early in the turn or run with 6 activations?

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