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Death Guard v0.2

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:31 pm 
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I've been reading through all of these chaos lists, and I really need to make like, 10, epic armies. You guys suck. This list in particular seems very fun, with all of the slow shooty stuff. One thing that caught my eye in particular were the zombies, and I propose an upgrade for them which is add an extra d6 for 100 points. Not sure how many times this upgrade could be taken, but I think it could be quite interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:05 pm 
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Not sure a zombie upgrade is really necessary for two reasons: 2D6+3 Zombies is quite random and can be really good at 15 zombies or really bad at 5 zombies and adding another D6 for 100points is one hell of an investment for potentially only one more zombie. They seem to fall into a roll as an annoyance formation. Having the option to make it bigger I'm not sure will add very much to its usefulness. Likely actually be a negative as the formation really does no real damage unless you are crazy lucky and so it being cheap is a big asset.
I can't imagine a 3D6+3 zombie formation being more useful than another deathguard retinue at the same cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:17 am 
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Fair enough. I totally didn't want to just make a massive horde of zombies for 2000 points... Nope! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:46 am 
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Can someone confirm the cost of contagion engines for me?
They are 350 in the original post, but are 325 in the PDF. I couldn't find any discussion on the difference in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:45 pm 
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Currently they sit at 325 single formation, 300 as an upgrade

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:49 pm 
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Just a quick thing, not really in relation to the rules, do you think you should put the PDF in the first post? It makes it a lot easier than shuffling through 10 pages just to make sure you have the most up to date version.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:27 am 
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atension wrote:
Currently they sit at 325 single formation, 300 as an upgrade

I think you are confusing the contagion engines and the plague towers.
Contagion engines were 350 for a formation in the original post, and are 325 for a formation in the PDF. I couldn't see a reason for the difference in this thread. Though it may be in here somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:41 am 
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haha, yes I was thinking the towers. For the engines I don't know might be a copy error.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:51 am 
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Has anyone else got in any games, or had more thoughts on any changes that may be needed?

Personally, my main concerns are still the Plague Ship and possibly the internal balance between the three Defiler variants.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:36 am 
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Still very interested in the development of this list also! Unfortunately my deathguard force hasn't seen any action in a while. Got a game in with them in November and got crushed badly by a DKoK player. My plague tower was a flaming wreck before it even activated. My zombies were ground to dust by a Leman formation and the arty power crushed my slow infantry.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:56 am 
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Is there a pdf version of this list?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:29 am 
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There's one on page 2: viewtopic.php?p=546431#p546431

atension - yes, I can see that being a painful matchup.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:51 pm 
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Looking back through the thread, does anyone have thoughts on this?

Steve54 wrote:
...
- look at Great Unclean one
- possibly DG specific Daemon Prince+Dreadnought


The Chaos Dreadnoughts already got a bump to ARM 3+ as part of the general Chaos update.

An Invulnerable Save would be consistent with the rest of the AV in the list, and some form of short-range Disrupt or Ignore Cover gun would fit, but that's a lot of upgunning to keep the same cost, and any increase in cost starts overlapping a lot with the Defiler-equivalents, and we can't drop the speed by 5cm like Steve did with the Predators etc...

Maybe drop the Twin Autocannon to a single Autocannon?

DEATH GUARD DREADNOUGHT AV
Speed 15cm
Armour 3+ CC 4+ FF4+
Power Fist (Assault weapon) base contact EA+1 (MW)
Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+*
Vomit Cannon 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
Notes: Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Walker

How does that look? It still keeps some AT which Death Guard are generally poor at, but gives it some extra oomph against close-range INF targets when doing an Advance/Double>retain Initiative>Engage.



*Note - the Twin Autocannon on the 0.2 QR PDF has the wrong stats for the Twin Autocannon and gives the Dread an Invulnerable Save not mentioned by Steve.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:17 am 
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Seems reasonable for the dread.

For the specific deathguard daemon prince in looking at the stats. The generic daemon prince is amazingly powerful.

AMR 3+ RA, 3+CC/FF, EA+2 MW assault, EA +1 small arms. Fearless, Commander, Leader, teleport.

Adding an inv Sv doesn't really seem to make sense with a 3+RA (already the most well armour unit in the game). Unsure what one would change to represent the deathguard theme. Begs the question does it even make sense to have a specific deathguard Daemon prince?

As for the great unclean one.... I really like him just how he is. Is there something that people think is under/overpowered about him? Seems quite a good representation of what a greater daemon of nurgle should be.

I agree that there is disparity of usefulness of the different walker options and it should be looked at.

As for the plague ship I've been playing it at 200 pts with 6BP and each template dropping a formation of D6+3 Zombies. Still quite good but not as crazy as its original incarnation or as nerfed as its latest revision. It's has only a moderate ability to inflict dmg but great for adding activations and hindering your opponent. In practice the zombies get wrecked 9 times out of ten anyways. It really helps balance out the slowness of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:03 am 
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Deamon Prince - agreed, I'd just remove the winged option and leave the rest as-is.


GUC - I've seen suggestions about adding Disrupt to the Stream of Corruption to make up for the complete lack of Macro Weapon on any of his attack, which would certainly fit thematically, and would be more consistent with the Fester Titan and Plaguereaper (all the short-range barrages would then be 3BP, Ignore Cover, Disrupt).

However that's something that would need discussing much more widely, as a DG-specific GUC would look a bit odd. On the other hand, with LatD redux still in progress this might be a good time to do so.

Does anyone know how popular the four different Greater Daemons are in Black Legion and the various LatD lists are?


For the Walkers:

I'm coming round to the Desecrator being fine. It initially looks much weaker than the Epic UK DG Defiler (EDIT 2 which may itself be a bit too powerful as a formation add-on), but swapping the AP5/AT6 Reaper Autocannon for the AP4/AT6 Disrupt Vomit Cannon helps a fair bit, especially in formations that have Disrupt Barrages, and 15cm move so that more than one can be in a garrisoning formation is great. Four of them with three Chaos Spawn for numbers (at the cost of having a mixed formation) for 350pt makes for a pretty tough Anti Aircraft garrison that can spread across a wide area.

EDIT 1 - your QR PDF has another error, the secondary gun should be:
Vomit Launcher 30cm AP5+/AT6+ Disrupt
Which is that one pip worse against INF. :(

The standard Defiler suffers from it's usual problem of being unfocused (although taking Chaos Spawn makes them much harder to break than in other lists), and I can see them working well when added to Plague Towers due to having the same speed and a big overlap in range.

The Plague Hulk I'm also coming round to, CC3+ with +2 EA MW on an infiltrator is vicious in more general use, I was biased due to playing against Eldar in more than half my games. Maybe swap the AP3+ Disrupt Decay Cannon for a Desecrator-style Vomit Cannon to add AT6? That way it's got some way of harming AV Skimmers outside of a single FF6+ roll.

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