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[EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2

 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:14 pm 
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Not sure if this thread is alive anymore but I'm currently building a Stigmatus Covenant Cultist Army and think the 1:1 restriction on support is really boring so I started to look at developmental threads around here.
Is this it? (Lost and the Damned = Stigmatus Covenant Cultist)

/Uven


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:24 pm 
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There has been a few attempts at a corrupted PDF list, and of course the Vraks lists too.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:40 pm 
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Mike is still taking this forward, I had a game against his latd last week which I think he is going to batrep

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:05 pm 
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I am indeed pretty damn bad at actually writing up BatReps, but I've played a fair number of games with the redux list since xmass. I'd say with the relaxation of Core/Support ratio and the inclusion of the Black Legion Daemon summoning changes, the list plays very fun, even without the traitor guard stuff.

Last couple of changes I've been playtesting Plague tower changes (25 pt price drop, move speed upped to 20cm) and they've worked very well; both as a Coven upgrade and as an independent war engine (used to transport a Coven). There is an unfortunate rules wrinkle with the second scenario, in that , to assault with the Plague Tower+Coven, the Coven being transported (within an independent War Engine) does not itself activate so doesn't get to summon Daemons, which seems a shame in what should be a Daemon heavy list. Considering that, I'm in favor of moving the Plague Tower to be a Coven formation upgrade (which would also use a Nurgle support slot) . Some people really don't like that though, so maybe leaving it in two locations in the list would be best.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:10 pm 
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Nice to hear.
Will be trying out this list in the next week or so and give some feedback.
My first thoughts after reading this thread is that I miss some of the IG elements, mainly sentinels and aircraft, and that we might need a special 1/3 regulation or something on certain warengines :)
The other changes looks really good, need to look up the black legion summoning thing


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:19 pm 
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All the relevant summoning changes are included in the redux v0.1 PDF linked in the first post so you shouldn't have to cross reference at all.

Regarding War Engines, I did do a playtest involving 7 Slaaneshi War Engines @3k against Dptdexys and....it didn't actually do that well. It runs into the same issue AMTL lists do when they try and use War Hounds as core formations; only 3DC for 275 pts isn't actually a lot and they're very easy to break and/or kill.

Regarding flyers; there are still the Tzeentch Doom Wings for your fighter/bomber needs, though that does mean you need to take a Tzeentch Coven. then again, you need to take a Nurgle Coven now to get artillery etc etc.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 12:35 pm 
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Ok, had a go att the list and made "some" notes while armybuilding. Overall this list was fun to play with even though I didn't have so many warmachines. They will have a tough time against shooty opponants but the daemons is a good meatshield.

Notes :)
Summoned units: I wish the rules regarding daemons being expendable could be made simpler. But I’m guessing they would be too powerful if the were ”plain” expendible? (Even if they would cost more?)
Daemonic Pact: Perhaps add a line about being able to summon daemons just for cross reference.
Generally ”Small arms”: if a unit has a weapon with a range I don’t think it needs the smallarms entry unless it gives EA or MW.
Arch-heretic is missing.
Icon Bearer: Has ”character” written in the notes no other character has this…
Land transporter: Why name all the units that can climb onboard? It would be simpler to just write all infantry units and then name all the big ones. Right now the Demagogue or Chaos Marine needs to run fast ;) (can daemons ride along?)
Technical: I do not really see the need for this one and I do not think it fits the theme. We have Altars and fighters.
Chaos Altar: I agree with the post above. You need to alter the alter to altar :)
Hellfire Cannon: 15 cm is really slow and it has MW and Macro Weapon
Lord of Battles: Critical move of 3D6! The warhound only staggers 1D6…
Daemon Assault Engine(and some others): In Notes it har ”Daemonic Engine” what does it mean?
Is the Daemonic Beasts left out on purpose?
Are the daemons supposed to follow the Black legion list? Something seems wrong with some of the greater daemons but I havn’t checkt the other list yet so it might be my memory :)

Army list:
The use of both LatD and Stigmatus in the text is a little bit confusing.
Do we need the ”max 4 upgrades”?. Most os the time I want a Daemonic pact and an Icon Bearer that leaves ”only” two more slots. Would be funt o be able to take a LARGE Coven.
”Up to two Daemonic Scout Titans” 325pts must be wrong as they cost more than 200 pts each. :)
The Silver Towers costs 325 pts each, thats very expensive...

Not sure I like that all IG elements is removed. I’m ok with the support slots but the chimeras and the odd Leman Russ gave the advancing coven some cover and speed.
I really like the Altar (and it gives cover) but right now It feels a little bit overpriced..

/Uven


Edit: Mordotens battle report of the first game viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27463&p=522777#p522777


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:55 pm 
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To answer your questions in order:


1) Daemonic summoning and, more generally, Daemonic rules are identical to the Black Legion/Chaos marine lists. Changing core rules like that are beyond the scope of this list.

2) The entry for Daemonic pact in the army list (pg 9) literally says "Allows the formation to summon daemons from the Daemon Pool"

3) Listing small arms as a weapon with a 15cm range is a basic Epic: Armageddon conceit, all lists do it and changing it here would be needless and counter-productive.

4) Arch-Heretic is indeed missing! good catch, will amend the list.

5) Icon Bearer is the only entry listed as a character.....because it is the only entry that is a character. Things like the Demagogue ir Space Marine Aspiring Champion are infantry, not characters. these are two very different things.

6) Listing all the specific transportable units is another Epic Armageddon list conceit (check any other list to confirm) and is in place to answer your second part; if a unit isn't listed as being transportable....then it's not transportable. This is complicated by the fact that the PDF does not seem to have rendered the notes text for the land transporter properly which I will fix for v0.2

7) the technical is literally a land transporter with a heavy stubber mounted on the back; I think it fits the list perfectly and was put in to replace the loss of Hydras.

8) I actually like the Alter and take it in all the lists. It could maybe use a points drop but even that I'm not convinced of.

9) 15cm move for the Hellfire cannon is unaltered from the original LatD list and is appropriate considering it's just a massive brass cannon on a wooden trolley. Also, consider that, because of the 15cm move, it can be set up as a garrison; that's 4 x MW4+ out to 75cm on overwatch at the beginning of the game.

10) Similarly, the Lord of battle crit is lifted directly from the original LatD list and represents the Lord of battle rampaging around in a bloodlust.

11) Daemonic Engine in the notes field is a holdover from how the original LatD list was structured and will be removed.

12) Daemonic Beasts are left out in error (I noted this in my first post)

13) Daemons, both lesser and greater, should be identical across this list and the Black Legion list.

14) the use of both Lost and the Damned and Stigmatus Coven is another holdover from the original Lost and the Damned list which did the same thing. We can revert all of one type to the other if needed.

15) Max 4 upgrades per coven is, once again, directly lifted from the original LatD list. The aim of this redux list wasn't a wholesale re-write but, with the removal of traitor guard maybe this can be relaxed.

16) you're right that there should be no cost next to "Up to two Daemon Scout Titans". Will be removed from v0.2

17) Silver towers should indeed list the formation as costing 325 pts, not each Tower costing 325 pts. Will be changed for v0.2

18) Chimeras and land transports are both 30cm move so speed is the same, and Leman Russ are too much of an iconic Guard unit. maaaaaaaaaybee some kind of possessed ragnarok might be applicable, but I'd much rather see the existing Daemonic engines fleshed out and added in as support first.

19) I agree that the Alter is generally fine, but could potentially use a points drop (or maybe the addition of something like Leader).

With all that said, I'll get v0.2 of the list written up and published to this thread by this weekend.

Thanks for the feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:20 pm 
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MikeT wrote:
15) Max 4 upgrades per coven is, once again, directly lifted from the original LatD list. The aim of this redux list wasn't a wholesale re-write but, with the removal of traitor guard maybe this can be relaxed.


The limit of 4 upgrades was added by Epic-UK when the list was reviewed quite a few years ago and a free Daemonic Pact was added as an upgrade (instead of 25pts) to help encourage use of Daemons which had become very rare.
The limit of 4 upgrades was put in place to stop auto upgrading every formation with Daemonic Pacts in the hope of rolling 6's in the strategy roll. Also almost all lists used up to that point usually had less than 4 upgrades, mainly Hydra,transports and some pacts.

If following the BL summoning I'd suggest going back to 25 points (+ free Daemon) and removing the 4 upgrade limit.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:34 pm 
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You're right, the original LatD Covens just had the restriction each upgrade could only be taken once; will revert back to that.

I really like the automatic pack for the Coven fomations though; I may keep that in but bump the formations up to 225 pts each.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Thanks for a quick and enlightening reply :)
Not all of my notes was meant to change things, just my reflection when I went through the list.
All things not mentioned looks good so I hope you don't take this as me dissecting the list to pieces.

Some replies before I leave you to do the 0.2 :D

2) Just found it odd to have the main "skill" mentioned in another entry...
3)I do not think you need to remove the small arms it looks ok (but Dave took them away from the compendium... viewtopic.php?f=69&t=23686&start=45)
5) I was referring to other army lists. Like all the lists in the compendium for example, but like 3 it doesn't hurt ether so I'm fine with it.
6)Still think this is stupid but an updated list will do for now ;)
8 ) I really like the Altar too, it's the spelling that bugs me :) (that and the cost)
9)True! didn't think of that.
18)Any AV will do. Right now the Transports do not give cover to the mutants and give the AT shoots something to blow up so I will think twice before taking them. (want to have them as an option, just want more options)
19)Rather a points drop. It is the high cost of a coven that is my issue. Not the Altar itself.

MikeT wrote:
You're right, the original LatD Covens just had the restriction each upgrade could only be taken once; will revert back to that.

I really like the automatic pack for the Coven fomations though; I may keep that in but bump the formations up to 225 pts each.
Sounds good

/uven


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:52 pm 
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Off topic posts deleted, this thread is for development of Latd redux list.

@Novemberrain - any more insulting/abusive posts will be deleted immediately and referred to CS.

On my part I apologise for reacting harshly, however people who have no inclination to play EA and contribute nothing to development should be aware how frustrating constant negative posting is.

Polls - we will not be having a poll because
a - without everybody voting posting their reasoning and involvement it is no indication of how the people who will actually use the list like ha novemberrain/uvenlord/mikeT etc want. I see no reason why there wishes should be overcome by voters with no actual interest or involvement in development.
b- if the list goes one way or the other what will that result in - telling Mike to abandon his list or Novemberrain to never use the existing Latd again?

LATD moving forward
The Stigmatus Latd will remain APPROVED and in the Compendium and tournament pack, any changes to it will be minor addressing particular units or mechanics.
The list in this thread and any future cultist or traitor IG lists will be developed alongside it. These lists will be included in the compendium if they are actively developed and played.

To further clarify - the NetEA development process - lists start at EXPERIMENTAL before moving to DEVELOPMENTAL and finally APPROVED. Therefore a list labelled EXPERIMENTAL is at the start of the process, it is an official NetEA list at its early stages. If a list wishes to remain separate from the NetEA process it is labelled FANLIST.
This Latd redux list is EXPERIMENTAL.

The tournament pack catalogues lists that are deemed balanced for tournament play (usually the APPROVED lists) it is not meant as a guide for what lists newbies should use but as a tool for tournament organisers. Ideally in several years multiple Latd lists will be in the pack for tournament use for all players regardless of experience.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:04 pm 
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Thank you for clearly explaining your reasons in answer to all the points which were made. I appreciate that. It's also very helpful and informative. To clarify one thing, I do have an interest in EA, but it doesn't fit in with the preferred development strategy here. As a result, I will play no further part in this topic.

Good luck with your future endeavours relating to this particular list development :).

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:16 am 
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Is this still moving? Planning a game soon and I might try this list this time.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:14 am 
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Yes it's still moving, MikeT is basically the worst person in the world at actually writing up the games he plays.... :D

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