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[EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2

 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:45 am 
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I think I might have done a terrible mistake when building my army...

I have two formations of Plague Engines, in order to field them one of my Covens has to be Nurgle. Can a Nurgle Coven summon Daemonic Beasts?? I only have Daemonic Beasts and Tzeench Flamers as demons, so none of my Nurgle Covens can summon?? I know Undivided FMs can summon Flamers for twice the cost.

And another question... The only support fm that a Chaos Undivided Coven can unlock are Hellfire Cannons and Defilers??

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:31 pm 
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batrep for your consideration :)

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:28 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
batrep for your consideration :)


This LatD list is very mobile, it's type is frequently seen at EUK Events. But are LatD known for being fully mounted and supported by Scout Titans and fast knights? Even the exclusively Slaneshi LatD armies in the fluff? I'm half tempted to paint up an Imperial version as a light mechanised regiment.

My point is, do the transports need to be limited to stop LatD being the human Speed Freaks? Are foot covens a on choice or even that good? When someone says LatD, with the exception of Epic lists, I think of hordes of troops and beasts on foot with more exotic units and surprises mixed in.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:04 pm 
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I think the transports are needed to make them competetive. Slow forces have a hard time taking objectives in this fame and are easily outmanouvered.

But maybe 2 mechanized Covens for every foot slogging one if theres a limit needed?

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:22 pm 
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I've got a couple of suggestions

-take the steel legion approach of having a foot coven and a mounted coven, the foot coven can be as big as you like, the mounted coven is fixed at say 8 infantry and 4 land transports, you can only take a mounted coven for every foot coven you take

-alternatively slow the land transports down a bit, make them a 20/25cm move so they aren't mega slow, but they are slower than equivalent mechanised infantry from higher-tech forces like marines and guard, plus they can't countercharge 10cm then dismount into BTB like speed freeks in trukks

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:42 pm 
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25cm move is a good one, Kyuss. Still don't think knights should be in here.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:49 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
25cm move is a good one, Kyuss. Still don't think knights should be in here.


+1

Any or all of the mech size and mech ratio org changes proposed look reasonable too


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:07 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I've got a couple of suggestions

-take the steel legion approach of having a foot coven and a mounted coven, the foot coven can be as big as you like, the mounted coven is fixed at say 8 infantry and 4 land transports, you can only take a mounted coven for every foot coven you take


I'm up to it but i prefer if it could be done so both remain as core formations, avoiding complexity and adding another category, by fiddling with the minimum number of troops so the minimum formation of on foot cost 50-100 less points than the mechanized or/and limit the options on the mechanized.

Even though the removal of the Traitor Guard and ratio to 1:2 helped a lot with making the army more fun to make a list for and i am very grateful for it, i am still worried and i think your idea could help with it.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:46 am 
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I think that sounds wise. Not that I have any such issues. Fluffc jbased build - no aircraft and lots of footslogging. But I can see how the list can be abused by those favoring competitiveness. The slaanesh builds seem especially unpalatable.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Uk tournament scene has finished for the year which means for myself more LatD redux testing.

I've managed to get two test games in ; one against Steve101 (winning draw to him with his Death Guard) and the other against some orks (2- 0 win to the orks).

The list I used for the first was:

COVEN [525]
Daemonic Pact (Nurgle), Demagogue, 11 Mutants, Plague Tower

COVEN [250]
Daemonic Pact (Slaanesh), 11 Cultists, Aspiring Champion (Arch Heretic), Technical

COVEN [310]
Daemonic Pact (Tzeentch), Demagogue, 11 Cultists, 6 Land Transporter, Technical

COVEN [310]
Daemonic Pact (Tzeentch), Demagogue, 11 Cultists, 6 Land Transporter, Technical

COVEN [250]
Daemonic Pact (Tzeentch), Demagogue, 11 Cultists, Technical

HELLFIRE CANNONS [200]
4 Hellfire Cannons

HELLFIRE CANNONS [200]
4 Hellfire Cannons

SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator

SLAANESH SCOUT TITANS [225]
Subjugator

TZEENTCH DOOMWINGS [150]
3 Doomwings

TZEENTCH DOOMWINGS [150]
3 Doomwings

DAEMON POOL [205]
2 Greater Daemon, 7 Lesser Daemon

For the second game, I dropped 4 lesser daemons and mounted the third Tzeentch coven in land transporters. In general, dispite the poor results I think the list played well.

Plague Tower was played with 15cm move both games. Plague Tower formation was engaged and broken (with the Tower itself reduced to 1 DC) turn 2 by teleporting terminators game 1, and was too slow to engage anything game 2 so ended up shooting skorcha formations.

Hellfire cannons started both games on overwatch and acted as a good deterant.

Subjugators managed to initiate some engagemrnts with support from covens in game 1, died before managing to do much game 2.

With the help of summoned Daemons Covens are fairly good assault formations, but being assaulted they're very suseptable to FF engagements. They also got shot a few times out of cover (including by some barrage weapons) which was always very costly. Which brings us to...

Regarding the recent conversation around Land Transporters above, I really don't feel there's a need to start restricting or changing them at this point. Remember, none of what's being talked about is any different from the original LatD list; the price and stats for covens and transports hasn't been altered any and in fact the original list forced more covens to be taken and didn't force the purchase of Daemonic Pact so they could be even cheaper.

They're also really vulnerable to being engaged (as I found in both games above), with a uniform 6+ FF and poor/no saves. You can "fix" this with big mutants/chaos spawn, but this starts getting expensive very quickly. There's also a lot of value in infantry (with no or really poor save) having AVs to claim cover from with the Light Vehicle Land Transporters don't allow.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:02 pm 
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This list certainly looks like a nice mix of coven types. I would be curious about how often the Slanneshi Titans don't make a LatD list in the tournament meta.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:30 pm 
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If you are fine with information from the original LaTD list, 8 out of 13 in UK tournaments took them, and 7 out of 18 took them on Kyrt's battle tracker. It is less than I expected, truth to be told.

Taking a quick look, Nurgle plague towers, Khorne assault engines and Hellfire Cannons are popular too. The rest of the daemon engines are seen a lot less.

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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:55 pm 
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That is less than expected! I'll get back in to my box!


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:45 pm 
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I think some of the less used DEengine formations could do with a price drop; they've competing with Defilers which have useful long range shooting and a 40cm engage range whilst also being good in FF and CC.

Silver towers for instance have better shooting but shorter ranged and will so often have to double to be able to shoot. They're also substantially worse in engagements and don't have infiltrate. In general Silver Towers are less generally useful than Defilers but could be argued to be of about the same worth as Defilers considering the greater shooting......but they're 75 pts more expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: [EXPERIMENTAL] Lost and the damned redux v0.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:50 pm 
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I'm planning on proxying up a list soon involving at least 2 Lord of Battles. Not because I think they're going to be particularly good, but because I really want to convert a pair of them. Will post results.


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