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Iron Warriors V3.1 (final version)

 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:38 am 
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The Ordinatus seems pretty fair as is, had a game tonight with a friend and I got one shot off first turn before he wiped my entire grand battery and Ordinatus off in one planetfall stormraven assault. People complain when they don't know how to deal with something. Sure, it excels at what it's made to do....shoot things from far away. To each army their own advantage and their own fluff. I used mine, then he used HIS advantage of speed and precision assault to counter my range. I could see how someone might call "cheesy" on his power formation, but for HIS army that's what crazy death company dudes are supposed to do, I expected it! Can't please everyone, but the list is FAR from broken.

And ANY armylist could be taken in a way to allow something that seems unfair when up against a foe that has a tougher time dealing with said unit type. Armylists exist to have options, some people will blatantly try and find the most UBER unit in the game...and really thats when you've lost sight of the whole point....to have fun.

I lost both my grand battery and ordinatus first turn, fired once, got asked If i wanted to start over, said no and we played it out to a super close, fun ending. It could have gone either way. Was a fun game and no one unit took the cake. Granted I didnt take all defilers....in fact i took none, but still the list seems very solid.

From a new player perspective I believe it captures the feel of what makes Iron Warriors different from other Chaos factions and this is what brought me here in the first place. Will have a more indepth batrep in the future

-V

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:30 am 
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Hi, I've written the post about the Ordinatus, but it's so large I've spun it off as its own thread. I hope you find it useful.
viewtopic.php?f=82&t=26835


BTW, regarding what I mentioned about Obliterators and their AA ability, this actually isn't a new point; it goes back at least as far as when Steve54 was working on this list in 2011.
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
but they can already do that with chaos terminators right? and cheaper too.
although, it doesn't come with AA support (that's kinda scaring me actually, oblits as air support. a formation of 5 of them, that's putting out 15 6+ shots right?)

viewtopic.php?p=406171#p406171
So it's an inherited concern rather than a new one :D


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:52 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
but they can already do that with chaos terminators right? and cheaper too.
although, it doesn't come with AA support (that's kinda scaring me actually, oblits as air support. a formation of 5 of them, that's putting out 15 6+ shots right?)

viewtopic.php?p=406171#p406171
So it's an inherited concern rather than a new one :D
And it's a concern that can be addressed with the proposed changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:19 am 
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I'm a newer player but I've played against this force 2 or 3 times. Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

I HATE those little 4 packs of Chaos Crabs! They're a fantastic unit! Making them into a 6 pack will be interesting. I like that it will reduce your activations slightly! I don't like that it's now harder to break them. :p. Overall I think it's a positive change! I'm wondering if you need to do this AND raise the cost of the Ordy? Speaking of which ...

Orks have no problem with the Ordy, but we'd love to see it lose the AA! Of course you'd probably just take some better AA as part of its bubble wrap? Do you get Hydras? If so, then I wholeheartedly insist that it keep it's AA!

I love that you can do something to beef up your Dreads and allow them to be more effective! Let's see those guys on the field more often! If there's issues with making it the supreme commander, then consider at least a character upgrade?

My final thought if you are looking at changes is not to do too many at once. I'm happy to help play test with my Orks!

Joel


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:08 pm 
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I'm the guy that Volrath fielded his Medrengard against the other night.

It is absolutely devastating. However, I think Space Marines, Blood Angels in particular, are uniquely equipped to mitigate it. I think in most games against marines, it will get one turn of shooting in before the marines drop on top of it or send a Thunderhawk against it. In my case I was able to roll it up with an intermingled assault against his Grand battery.

However, I could see it being very frustrating to fight against with an army that does not have access to such tactics. Having to slog my way across the battlefield to try to kill the thing would be pretty tough. That Strategy Rating 4 really is a big deal, particularly in artillery duels. Even in our game, Volrath was able to get the drop on me, and opened up with a salvo from his Grand Battery and retained to drop the Medrengard on me. It was effectively two dead or broken formations before the game even started.

Obviously, this is a tremendous amount of points spent on artillery, but, against some armies, this amount of indirect fire could greatly damage an opponent before they have an opportunity to do anything at all. And then to have to slog across the table to attack it while coming under even more fire, I could see how that would be daunting.

I know that debate is raging around this unit, but I don't really have a dog in this fight. I will say that I agree it's an iconic unit and does belong in the IW list. I can also see how it might be perceived as being very powerful, particularly against some armies. 600 points "feels" like a pretty good deal to me for everything it brings to the table, and I might agree with others who think that it could stand to be a bit more expensive.

On the other hand, against marines, it won't get as much bang for its buck. I guess this is the eternal issue with balancing.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.0a
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:05 am 
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V2.5 available for download in the first post of this thread.

Changes for V2.5:
23rd February 2014
- Changed the Defiler Assault Pack to a formation of 5 for 400pts
- Added the Stalker upgrade to the Armoured Assault Company, Artillery Company and the Daemonic Artillery
- Changed the Obliterator Cult to 0-1, 4 Obliterators for 350pts
- Added the Warsmith Upgrade to the Dreadnought Assault Pack for 100pts
- Increased the cost of the Ordinatus Medrengard to 625pts
- Corrected a few (more) spelling mistakes
- Changed the Siege Dreadnought FF to – (as it has no ranged weapons)
- Changed the wording and cost of the Emplacements upgrade

Image

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Last edited by Onyx on Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:40 pm 
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V2.5 changes look good.

One question. If I buy emplacements and a stalker for an artillery unit should I get enough emplacements for the stalker as well as the artillery?

Will try and get some games in with new defiler structure


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Chazrael wrote:
V2.5 changes look good.

One question. If I buy emplacements and a stalker for an artillery unit should I get enough emplacements for the stalker as well as the artillery?

Will try and get some games in with new defiler structure

Good question!
I think I'll change the wording to just "Take enough Emplacements for all vehicles in the formation - 25pts". I honestly don't see the upgrade being taken too much as the same level of protection can be gained from suitable terrain for free but it is fluffy for the Iron Warriors to have them available.

I've edited the V2.5 PDF in the first post.
Thanks! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:05 pm 
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No problem.

Don't know whether you've seen it but I've added another battle report to the battle report thread. 3k game vs SL. Ended up being a 4 trun 1-0 victory to SL.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:07 pm 
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Yup, I had a quick look earlier (that's what prompted me to get the updated list out today :D ).
I'll have a more thorough look through as soon as I can.

Thanks again!

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:19 pm 
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Cool. One thing that occured to me during the week. Is it worth adding emplacements as an option to Chosen? Logic here is that they're a dug in screen pinning the enemy in place while they're being shelled and finally attacked by the bulk of the IW force. It means you can set up nice emplaced "nests" of artillery plus screening infantry.

Wouldn't want normal infantry formations to get it to avoid playing like Imp Fists.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 pm 
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There's some text missing from the document.

You can add up to three vindicators to a formation (see viewtopic.php?f=82&t=25131)

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:35 am 
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Yup, it should read 0-3 Vindicators 35pts each.
I'll get that corrected as soon as I can.

On the question of Chosen with emplacements, formations that are on Overwatch (such as garrisoned Scouts) are already counted as being in cover (-1 to-hit modifier when shooting at them) and they already have a 4+ armour save so there wouldn't really be a benefit in them getting Emplacements.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors V2.5
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:26 am 
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Thanks for posting an update and new version Steve. Looks good!

Quote:
- Changed the Defiler Assault Pack to a formation of 5 for 400pts


The most important piece of feedback I have is regarding Defilers. After playng a number of games against and one with Iron Warriors IMHO they don't need to be weaker, less powerful in CC, less good at shooting or more expensive. All it appeared needed was that the size of the formation increase to better legitimise these excellent units as being 'Core'.
The Black Legion etc pay 275 for 4 Defilers (68.75pts per model) and this new formation of 5 for 400pts moves the unit cost above that.

I recommend that the Defiler pack is moved up from 5 models to 6 models, and stays at the same current cost of 400pts. This will make the unit cost 66.66, marginally less than other lists, but make them a great Core choice that costs and looks like one.

Quote:
- Added the Stalker upgrade to the Armoured Assault Company, Artillery Company and the Daemonic Artillery
- Added the Warsmith Upgrade to the Dreadnought Assault Pack for 100pts


Those look good at first glance but do these two changes mean that IW can field both AA and a Supreme Commander without infantry? ie as another completely Armoured Vehicle List that doesn't actually need INF to function?
If so, that would be an entirely new strength to this army and most all-AV lists have commensurate weaknesses.

Quote:
- Increased the cost of the Ordinatus Medrengard to 625pts


Sounds fair. I posted options to make it better for more points or less good for less in the thread discussing this, but a small price bump like that is by far the simplest.


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