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Thousand Sons 5.X

 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:14 am 
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Hi guys, I just have a few questions about this list (and the game in general). Ive only played a few times amd that was about three years ago :(

1.) Suppression vs AA units- As I understand it, if a formation with no ranged weapons aside from small arms has a deciever attached and a single blast marker that means that the deciever will be unable to fire unless the
Plane approaches within 15cm, at which point a standard stand takes the suppression. Would that then change if I also added lets say a standard defiler? and had him take the suppression out to75cm?

2.) Adeptus Exempla/Magister Templi - Why does the Magister Templi lose the Sorcerous Weapons 45cm shot, as well as the 15cm MW5+ shot? Rules as Written, upgrading him doesnt seem like a very good deal.

3.) Why do the neophytes get an armour save? is that to represent magic? I would have just expected them to be a straight port of cultists from LatD. I really welcome their addition to the list regardless.

4.) Theres lots of units that get Extra Attacks in melee, some also getting them in FF. If they arent a War Engine does that mean it doesnt get its FF EA if its in base contact?

5.) Has anybody maybe considered adding in some of those modified Cybernetica robots like in the novels?

Thanks in advance guys. Im really looking forward to trying this list out


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:

1.) Suppression vs AA units- As I understand it, if a formation with no ranged weapons aside from small arms has a deciever attached and a single blast marker that means that the deciever will be unable to fire unless the
Plane approaches within 15cm, at which point a standard stand takes the suppression. Would that then change if I also added lets say a standard defiler? and had him take the suppression out to75cm?

I think that's correct but I'm no rules boffin so I will have to leave it to someone who is.

Orpheus wrote:

2.) Adeptus Exempla/Magister Templi - Why does the Magister Templi lose the Sorcerous Weapons 45cm shot, as well as the 15cm MW5+ shot? Rules as Written, upgrading him doesnt seem like a very good deal.

I've updated the characters options in the list in 5.2 so I hope this shouldn't be an issue.

Orpheus wrote:

3.) Why do the neophytes get an armour save? is that to represent magic? I would have just expected them to be a straight port of cultists from LatD. I really welcome their addition to the list regardless.

At this point in the list I think they could lose the armour save but I will leave it as is for testing. Your idea that it could be a sort of magic save sounds fun. :)

Orpheus wrote:

4.) Theres lots of units that get Extra Attacks in melee, some also getting them in FF. If they arent a War Engine does that mean it doesnt get its FF EA if its in base contact?

Yep, that's correct as per 1.12.5 Resolve Attacks in the rules.

Orpheus wrote:

5.) Has anybody maybe considered adding in some of those modified Cybernetica robots like in the novels?

No one has mentioned them IIRC, but we also have to take into account what 10000 years of attrition and exposure to the Warp and the loss of the knowledge would have on their use. At this point I can't see a need for them except for a fluff point of view.

Orpheus wrote:

Thanks in advance guys. Im really looking forward to trying this list out

Thanks Orpheus. Would you mind trying out the new 5.2 version (now listed in this thread's original post) instead?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Listed up dated in OP.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Hi guys, I just have a few questions about this list (and the game in general). Ive only played a few times amd that was about three years ago :(

1.) Suppression vs AA units- As I understand it, if a formation with no ranged weapons aside from small arms has a deciever attached and a single blast marker that means that the deciever will be unable to fire unless the
Plane approaches within 15cm, at which point a standard stand takes the suppression. Would that then change if I also added lets say a standard defiler? and had him take the suppression out to75cm?


That is correct but remember suppression is from the rear of the unit (relative to the target ofc) so you'd need a stand further from the planes than the deciever is to take the suppression

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Ok, thanks guys.

I guess people didnt like the rosicrucian rankings? Oh well :(

So the Magister was kind of a ported Daemon Prince? I liked the idea of an even more OTT squad of super psykers.
Double check the deciever, flamer and space ship entries. Theres some stuff missing and backwards I think


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:07 pm 
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Cheers for the update Dobbsy, as above the flamer (missing EA FF), the space ships (swapped stats) and the deciever (change to ether cannon? used to be instead of battle cannon?)

As the disk riders were initially ported raptors, it might be worth looking at their stats to make them a more FF orientated unit, rather than a close combat unit like raptors.

Also I presume we take the latest summoning rules from the Black legion list? has there been any more thoughts on allowing cult lists to have more than 1 GD in play at any one time? (ie a BL list can have 4 different GD on the board whilst cult lists are limited to a single GD)

Hopefully get a game with this later in the year.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Damn cut and paste! Will fix it up tonight. Thanks for pointing them out.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:43 am 
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Are the demons considered to be "expendable" or am I crossing my rulesets? If so, that is sweeeeet.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:23 am 
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Thanks for the update! I just missed out on a bunch of eBay listings for Tzeentch aircraft (curses!) but have started accumulating figures to build the new army. I now have a whole lot of daemons, so will be trying out some summoning lists.

Like Ortron, I'd love to see a FF-focused adaption of the Disc Riders - though with the Skimmer rule, that may end up making them prohibitively expensive. The current version is still an interesting unit: you have the option of forcing FF against any particularly specialised CC opponents, or you can use the good CC value against other targets.

Orpheus - this is from the Summoned Units rules (6.0.3) in the 2014 compendium:
Quote:
Summoned units count as part of the formation for all rules purposes as long as they remain on the battlefield. Summoned units are Expendable, but they are otherwise counted as normal units, and are included when working out if a formation outnumbers an opponent in an assault or is broken by Blast markers, etc. Note that Daemons that are killed in an assault do count towards the number of units killed by the enemy when working out modifiers for assault resolution. If a formation loses an assault remove extra hits from the formation before it is broken and all the remaining summoned units are then removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:25 am 
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I'm curious what a "regular" 3k Thousand Sons army looks like in other people's experiences - or what the army list design is intended to do. I keep trying to put together a list that I like, and then going back to using Black Legion or Red Corsairs instead...

Compared to the Black Legion, Thousand Sons seems to be defined by a few things:

  • Expensive, tough, slow troops that don't actually kill much stuff (Thousand Sons marines, Terminators to some extent)
  • Very expensive elite formations that also don't kill much (Scarab Occult and Ahriman's Chosen)
  • Glass Cannon armoured units (Towers, Greater Spire) that provide the main AT firepower on some very brittle chassis.
  • Cheap, relatively fragile aircraft
  • No conventional superheavies (titans or tanks)

I can't quite wrap my head around it. It can do some interesting things with teleporting units, but isn't really maneuverable enough to rely on a mobile objective-grabbing game. It's also not really an attrition list: anything with better shooting (especially artillery and titans) will grind it down.

Rubric units are hard to kill, but can largely be ignored early in the game as they have no real teeth. Rubric marines in particular need to get into assault, but they can't help soften up their target in earlier turns via shooting. Cheap aircraft are great for harrying broken units. Breaking those units in the first place seems like a problem.

For the Thousand Sons fans out there: what does this list do? How do you work around its various weaknesses in order to use those strengths?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:59 am 
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ortron wrote:
(change to ether cannon? used to be instead of battle cannon?)

I mixed the weapons on the Defiler and Deceiver so that some ground AA was available. The Ether Cannon replaces the Reaper Autocannon.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:28 am 
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Updated the 5.2 list without the mentioned errors.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:14 am 
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@ Morsla,

I must admit it has been close to a year since I've played with the TS, but my list at 3k used to include 3 units of infantry in rhinos with command, thralls and icon. Then 1-2 units of armour, a big unit of silver towers, SC formation with thralls and icon, and then some disc riders and aircraft to fill out the points.

The infantry in rhinos were reasonably mobile in the early turns, whilst the armour and towers would try to shoot down the biggest threats or prep units for a marine/daemon assault. 2 firelords were good for increased reach/mobility that helped deal with enemy arty or fast units. Basically i would try to get fwd on turn 1 and then setup large, deamon lead assaults in turns 2 & 3. The good thing was once you were forward and on the objectives you become rather hard to shift. The infantry become the rock around which the other mobile, harder hitting units manoeuvre.

I've tried the greater towers and warp palace on occasions but not had much success.

- note the infantry all seem poor to start with but they generally do really well in an assault due to 4+ RA on most things. Throw some flamers or beasts into the mix and they can dish out some decent hits, but at the end of the day its about getting them into favourable firefights, bouncing the enemy attacks off your armour save, and smashing them with the daemons and towers.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:04 pm 
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How would people feel about making the defilers a separate formation?This army basically can be divided into three deployment styles; teleporters, garrisons and rhinos....the defiler doesnt fit very well into any of them.
Having a formation of three or four of them would be VERY handy.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:39 am 
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Could be done. Where would you like to see the formation sit in the list structure? I don't want to see masses of Defiler units though as they aren't the focus of the list. It would come with restrictions. Can we please get some BatReps happening with the list as it is first, though? :)


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