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Thousand Sons 5.X

 Post subject: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:50 pm 
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5.2 Posted

Changes include:
Converted the Magister Templi to a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Changed/removed the Adeptus Exempla to Sorceror Lord
Returned the Chaos Dreadnought to the list
Merged the Deceiver with the Defiler weaponry into the single Deceiver entry.
Gave the Battleship its own entry rather than being an upgrade.

Also updated costs for those units changed in the Black Legion list:
50 point Greater Daemons and gains daemonic focus
15 point lesser daemons
25 point Icon Bearer


Attachments:
THOUSAND SONS CHAOS SPACE MARINE ARMY LIST 5.2.pdf [362.95 KiB]
Downloaded 996 times
File comment: Superceded by 5.2 above, but kept here for historical purposes
Thousand Sons 5.1.pdf [646.11 KiB]
Downloaded 1232 times


Last edited by nealhunt on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:09 pm 
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Hi Neal

Just had a quick read and came up with the following.

Looking over the list I cannot help think that the goal was to get the list cheaper. Due to this I wonder at the cost on the Scarab Occult. Is First Strike necessary? If so, would a reduction in range of weapon be an option? 400 points just appears a little steep(?). How did you come to 400 points?

Points cost for Rubric Fellowship states "275 points for 6". This appears redundant.

The cheap activations in the Core appear to come from formations of 4 predators (200 points). Not an issue, just thought as the army may see more Predators used than other lists.

Neophyte Class: I received a lot of 'slack' myself regarding Beastmen in the World Eaters and even a bit of push back for a Beastmen class for the Thousand Sons. Is this unit not just a another 'Blitz Guard' and an excuse for some cheap units? Would you consider a formation of say 4-6 'specialised' units that offer support to the TS rather than such a formation that appears to be there just to take BM and rally every turn? The TS appeared to fight as specialised cadres and every loss (weather Marine or human) was important. I do not see how this formation works in harmony with any other formation. Is it necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:12 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Looking over the list I cannot help think that the goal was to get the list cheaper.

The goal is for the list to be more flexible in terms of functional army composition and to have fewer problems with large, high-save, all-Fearless formations.

Quote:
Due to this I wonder at the cost on the Scarab Occult. Is First Strike necessary? If so, would a reduction in range of weapon be an option? 400 points just appears a little steep(?). How did you come to 400 points?

The formation has the Supreme Commander, so that's +75-100.

Quote:
Neophyte Class: I received a lot of 'slack' myself regarding Beastmen in the World Eaters and even a bit of push back for a Beastmen class for the Thousand Sons. Is this unit not just a another 'Blitz Guard' and an excuse for some cheap units? ... I do not see how this formation works in harmony with any other formation. Is it necessary?

I didn't like the idea of beastmen in TSons because of flavor, not because of balance or tactical possibilities like a blitz guard. Personally, I never had a problem with them including them in the World Eaters, just with the number of variants.

The Neophyte Cult is intended to be a less expensive alternative to the Rubric formations, yes. The point is to have alternatives that don't tank the activation count but which might provide some alternate style of play.

Strategically, the Neophyte formation is a horde version of the Rubric formation. I can think of several uses for them, all of which are basic "line" infantry roles. They can be horde speed bump garrisons. They should have some decent area denial capabilities because ending a turn too close to them would threaten Teleport combos. They can be close support guards for the Towers/Spires/Palace, which would amplify their assault threat and area denial capabilities in a similar fashion to teleport combos. Placed out in front of armor they threaten a move/shoot/assault combo.

The Rubrics could do any or all of those and the Rubric formations have better options for deployment and formation composition than the Neophytes. So it's possible the Neophytes won't have a real niche.

But if I'm wrong and they end up wonky, it's easy to fix. Too good - increase points. Too useless - probably just cut them as they are already quite cheap. Duplicative of the role of the Rubric Fellowships - cut 'em.

As far as style, these are expendables, not brothers in the legion. Even prior to the Heresy, Magnus was willing to sacrifice Thralls in the thousands. These troops are only a small step up from that and the TSons have fallen, so I don't see any reason they would be protected.

Quote:
Would you consider a formation of say 4-6 'specialised' units that offer support to the TS

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:52 am 
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nealhunt wrote:
Quote:
Due to this I wonder at the cost on the Scarab Occult. Is First Strike necessary? If so, would a reduction in range of weapon be an option? 400 points just appears a little steep(?). How did you come to 400 points?

The formation has the Supreme Commander, so that's +75-100.


I see the unit being worth 350 points or even 325 with some playtest data. If you up the Dreadclaw cost and take the 'potential cost' off the formation as it functions as a ground-pounder, I think this is where the points should lie.

You could just make Dreadclaws 25 points per 3 units and save some costs on the base formations which appear to have the 'potential-cost' already built in.

Quote:
The Neophyte Cult is intended to be a less expensive alternative to the Rubric formations, yes. The point is to have alternatives that don't tank the activation count but which might provide some alternate style of play.


Fair enough. I have other ideas of which are below

Quote:
As far as style, these are expendables, not brothers in the legion. Even prior to the Heresy, Magnus was willing to sacrifice Thralls in the thousands.


Only for good reason was my understanding (saving Horus being one of them).

nealhunt wrote:
Quote:
Would you consider a formation of say 4-6 'specialised' units that offer support to the TS

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


The various specialisations appeared to work in harmony. An example is one formation would concentrate on the future and then warn of incoming fire before it happened, or find enemy positions and attack them. In Epic:A terms this could be represented with Strategy Rating, however there are some other options:

Smaller Formations of 4 or 6 units who:
- within a certain range of an enemy give +1 to hit (much like marker lights with the Tau) due to them giving the position away and not needing a line of sight, just a proximity
- would have a short range on Firepower (15 or 30cm) that could act as either Ignore Cover, Indirect Fire or even both signifying the boiling of the blood etc.

Both smaller formations above combined would provide the start of a synergy to the army and how it operates. These smaller formations (being on the cheaper end) would also assist the larger elements of the army to perform better for their same cost, off-setting the 3rd turn grind where you and I both know from Cult lists, it is usually a game of deny the opposition rather than strategically taking the win.

Just a few thoughts I had this morning that I thought I would share. Any thoughts yourself on the above?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:25 am 
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Neal, just something else I wanted to ask;

There has been some discussion recently regarding the Daemon Engines which I guess effects the Silver Towers in your list. I am of the belief that the Cult lists retain their engines at a 1+ initiative and not go to 2+ to coincide with the LatD list.

I see that you have priced them to be more so are you intending to keep Silver Towers at the 1+ initiative?

If so, could I recommend the following pricing for them as once you get past 4 units and go towards 6, the Fearless ability is made better:

Silver Towers of Tzeentch : 4 units for 350 points, and +100 points per extra unit. Effectively this will make back the cost to take into account 'Fearless'. Overall it is only 10 points more expensive than your 6 unit formation and gets back to 25 point margins


Last edited by frogbear on Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:43 am 
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Rubric Terminators

Another non-25 point costing. I know that they have Rubric, yet this is well offset by Teleport and Fearless

Could I suggest the following as a start for playtests:

Rubric Terminators: 4 units for 375 points, and +75 points per extra unit.

I am aware that it adds ~25 points to the formation, but they are comparable to Space Marine Terminators (with ATSKNF) and come with a Character. I do not see Rubric ever being an issue if these guys are used correctly.

Overall I see their worth as being
4 units for 375
5 units for 450
6 units for 550

That is still 100 points cheaper than the Death Guard for a 6 unit formation


Last edited by frogbear on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:49 am 
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Thralls

These are listed as a CHAR yet appear to be an 'ability' addition.

If used, do you remove the unit it is a part of? It is not made clear.
How would they be represented on a table?
Can they be attacked in an Engage action?
Can they be targeted by Sniper fire?

I will stop now. :) If I don't ask however, who will? :P


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:27 am 
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nealhunt wrote:
The formation has the Supreme Commander, so that's +75-100

Actually I always thought that ability was worth an extra +50 points to any particular unit, as in the Marine list a SC has the same weapon load out as a Captain but has Supreme commander replacing Commander


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:47 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Smaller Formations of 4 or 6 units who:
- within a certain range of an enemy give +1 to hit (much like marker lights with the Tau) due to them giving the position away and not needing a line of sight, just a proximity
- would have a short range on Firepower (15 or 30cm) that could act as either Ignore Cover, Indirect Fire or even both signifying the boiling of the blood etc.

You can reference the multiple iterations of the Tau Markerlight/GM mechanics and discussions to get a good example of the hefty number of challenges involved in this kind of interaction between formations. Even with it being an iconic Tau feature there were multiple discussions about whether it should just be scrapped.

If the units should have these kinds of capabilities based on the support of psykers, then I would just abstract out the exact position of the support psykers and give the abilities to the units outright.

Quote:
I see that you have priced them to be more so are you intending to keep Silver Towers at the 1+ initiative?

I just left them the same pending a final determination by Steve. If he goes 2+, I'm fine with it. They'll probably stay a bit pricier than L&D because of the superior SR, but I'd drop the cost to something closer to L&D levels.

Of course, they aren't really daemon engines, but that's another discussion entirely...

Quote:
Thralls
If used, do you remove the unit it is a part of? It is not made clear.
How would they be represented on a table?
Can they be attacked in an Engage action?
Can they be targeted by Sniper fire?

They work just like characters. Using the character's abilities doesn't change the underlying unit. Characters cannot be interacted with directly, only by affecting the unit it's attached to.


I'm open to point cost adjustments but for the existing units playtests show them to be pretty accurate. I want to see how they work in the new environment before I start adjusting.

====

Scarab Occult: I think I spotted part of the issue. I typoed the Adeptus stats. They are supposed to have the ability to Teleport so the Scarab Occult formation can Teleport. I'm sure that accounts for some of the difference in valuation.

This is long after the fact, but as far as points, I estimated it something like this...

Adeptus are basically CSMs with some upgrades. Invulnerable adds about 25% to the toughness (it takes ~5 hits to kill 2 units versus 4 hits to kill 2 normal CSMs). It adds First Strike to both CC and FF, which is hard to judge but let's call it about 15-25% boost to assaults. CSMs are ~35 points each, so that puts Adeptus in the 40 point per unit range.

Exempla adds roughly +50% firepower, doubles the toughness via armor and adds Fearless. That's pushing a 75 point unit, not counting the SC abilities.

On other factors, the Exempla makes your Supreme Commander 4+RA and Fearless, which is brutally tough to remove, creating a multiplier effect for its cost (and for any characters attached to the Exempla if you decide to). There is a slight premium for boosted SR. Neither of those is especially worthy in terms of outright point costs but when in doubt there is justification to round up.

5x40 (Adeptus) + 75 (Exempla) + 50-75 (SC) + 25-50 (Teleport) = 350 to 400 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:13 pm 
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Quote:
Actually I always thought that ability was worth an extra +50 points to any particular unit

It's dependent on the army list the character is in... so a SC is worth +50pts over a normal commander to Marines, but to IG (Who need the ability more due to their lower Strategy Rating) it's worth a full 100pts.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Neal.

I noticed this one:

Thousand Sons Warcoven : 1 Thousand Sons Adeptus Lord and 4 to 6 Rubric Terminator units
Upgrades Allowed include Thousand Sons Land Raiders

Thousand Sons Land Raiders Upgrade: Up to 4 Thousand Sons Land Raiders

Does that mean if you buy beyond 4 Terminators there are no transport options or is it just a typo?

Cheers....

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Actually I always thought that ability was worth an extra +50 points to any particular unit

It's dependent on the army list the character is in... so a SC is worth +50pts over a normal commander to Marines, but to IG (Who need the ability more due to their lower Strategy Rating) it's worth a full 100pts.

That's just odd. I would have thought the lower strategy/initiative rating should be cost factored into the entire list (the reason things cost less etc on a formation basis) and the SC ability still costs the same. That's why all army lists' SC costs 100 points. Off the top of my head I can't think of any that aren't 100 points -I don't know every list however.

Sorry Neal. Thread derailment halted.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:29 am 
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*pokes neal*

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:03 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Actually I always thought that ability was worth an extra +50 points to any particular unit

It's dependent on the army list the character is in... so a SC is worth +50pts over a normal commander to Marines, but to IG (Who need the ability more due to their lower Strategy Rating) it's worth a full 100pts.

That's just odd. I would have thought the lower strategy/initiative rating should be cost factored into the entire list (the reason things cost less etc on a formation basis) and the SC ability still costs the same. That's why all army lists' SC costs 100 points. Off the top of my head I can't think of any that aren't 100 points -I don't know every list however.


Orks have a free SC.
CSM have a free or 25pt or 50pt SC depending on the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousand Sons 5.X
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Orks have a free SC.
CSM have a free or 25pt or 50pt SC depending on the list.


There's also Biel Tan at 75 points.
Seigeasters are 25 - 50 points depending on list.
Lost and Damned - Free.


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