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Death Guard 0.7

 Post subject: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:54 pm 
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Woo update!

This is mostly a consolidation and simplification update, building on the work in viewtopic.php?f=82&t=32848






Changelog for version 0.7.2: (2019/07/31)

Structure: Plaguereaper Company
Plaguereapers have been moved from the Air/Titans third to a Support Formation, with the ability to take Contagion and Walker upgrades, in addition to the existing Nurgling Infestation upgrade.

Upgrade: Nurgling Infestation
This has been changed from 1+d3 to a flat 3, for the sake of simplicity, and to make it easier to plan armies.

Unit: Plaguereaper
As discussed in-thread, the Plaguereaper has lost a Lascannon, had it's Heavy Bolters upgraded to Twin Heavy Bolters, and lost the restricted fire arc on it's main gun due to it being turret-mounted in the background, and to avoid making the unit any cheaper. The Critical effect now hits nearby units on a 4+ instead of a 6+.

Unit: Plagueship
The number of Zombies has been changed from 3+2d6 to 6+d6, which overall is a slight reduction.

Rule: Nurgle's Rot
The text has been made more specific, so the casualty has to have been caused by actual hits - hackdown kills won't count.

Attachment:
Death Guard v0.7.2 Plaguereaper Company.pdf [95.68 KiB]
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Changelog for version 0.7.0: (2019/07/31)

Blight Drones
Reduced from 5 for 250 points to 4 for 200 points.

Plague Marine Chosen
Gain the Walkers upgrade.

Nurgle's Rot
Structurally, this has been removed as a formation upgrade, and has been rolled into Daemonic Pact, instead of the free Lesser Daemon.
Rules-wise, it's now automatic if causing casualties in an assault, but only adds one Lesser Daemon point, no matter how many casualties are caused.
Designer's note - this makes the ability more reliable, but with a much lower chance of having a big impact on the game. In addition, it removes an upgrade which makes the list slightly simpler.

Characters and Daemon Prince
The characters now match the Black Legion for consistency and simplicity, so the Nurgle Warlord is now an additional Character who only has Supreme Commander and is added to the existing Lord/Sorcerer character (or Daemon Prince).
In the same way, the Daemon Prince is back to standard.

Blightlord Terminators
A minor tweak gives Ignore Cover to their FF attack.

Beasts of Nurgle
The non-summoned Beasts of Nurgle gained Fearless, to match the Chaos Spawn that they're sharing an upgrade with.

Plague Towers
Speed is reduced to 15cm. Many apologies, I thought this had already been fixed in a previous version...

Defilers/Desecrators/Plague Hulks
These three are unchanged, but I've added an experimental Plague Hulk version that combines the Desecrator and Plague Hulk into a single unit to simplify the list further. It's slightly less shooty than the Desecrator and slightly less combaty than the Plague Hulk.

Attachment:
Death Guard v0.7.0.pdf [94.38 KiB]
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Last edited by IJW Wartrader on Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Obvious things for testing:

Plague Marine Chosen - are garrisoning Defiler-alikes too good, or does the high cost (400 points with three Defiler equivalents) keep them balanced?

Nurgle's Rot - the current pricing structure effectively makes it 15pt per formation, so the cost of an extra Lesser Daemon. Across the course of a game it's likely that a formation could gain two or maybe even three LDs back, but at the cost of being less likely to win the assaults in the first place.

Plague Hulk/Desecrator mash-up - I'm still unsure about this idea, so any feedback is welcome!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:45 pm 
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An updated list builder is now on https://ijw.on-rev.com/armyforge_temp/indexNETEA.html

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:08 am 
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A partial test game was played this evening, I used the list below, with all Plague Hulks using the experimental mashup version. For assorted reasons we only got two turns in, but it was still useful for evaluating some of the changes.

Incompertus, 2990 POINTS
Death Guard (NetEA V0.7.0 Taccoms Thread)
==================================================

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [400]
Plaguecaster Lord, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Lord of Contagion (Supreme Commander)

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [410]
Plaguecaster Lord, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, 2 (Beasts) Chaos Spawn

BLIGHT DRONE SWARM* [200]
4 Blight Drones

PLAGUE ZOMBIE INFESTATION* [175]
3+2D6 Plague Zombies

DEATH GUARD CHOSEN [400]
4 Plague Marine Chosen, 3 (Walkers) Plague Hulk

DEATH GUARD CHOSEN [290]
4 Plague Marine Chosen, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), 3 (Beasts) Beasts of Nurgle

WALKER HORDE [275]
4 Plague Hulk

FESTER TITAN [275]

FESTER TITAN [275]

DAEMON POOL [90]
6 Lesser Daemon (Plaguebearers)

PLAGUE SHIP* [200]


Nurgle’s Rot - due to the lack of ‘free’ Lesser Daemons, I pumped some extra points into the Daemon Pool. Across the two turns I gained two or three extra Daemons, which felt about right.

AA Plague Hulks - the two formations that included them were never in assaults and never shot at AVs, so acted almost identically to Desecrators. More testing needed...

Defiler-equivalents in Chosen - the Chosen with Plague Hulks did help a lot with AA coverage, but arguably less than a 125pt-cheaper formation of four Desecrators would have done. Notably, the speed increase to 20cm means that adding them to Chosen becomes the only way of getting more than one in a garrisoning formation, as the base Walker Horde formation can no longer garrison itself.

Beasts of Nurgle - the Chosen with Beasts were involved in two assaults, with the Beasts’ Reinforced Armour giving them saves against MW hits from the Ravenwing. Due to facing Skimmers, the Beasts of Nurgle were better than Chaos Spawn would have been, but if the situation was reversed the Spawn would have been even better.

Chosen - Fearless Scouts are proving to be very powerful (as expected), and may see a further bump to 200pt for four. I’m considering moving them to Elites to match Black Legion, but that opens up other possible abuses like taking 1 Chosen and 2 Zombies per Retinue. I’ll probably remove the Champion of Chaos and Icon Bearer upgrades at some point, to reduce the possible upgrades.

Plague Ship - the barrage was devastating thanks to a lucky guess on where things would be garrisoning, catching almost an entire Ravenwing formation. Then twelve Zombies turned up. The effectiveness of the barrage I put down to game variation, but the Zombies are likely to be reduced to 3+d6 instead of 3+2d6 so that they’re less of a force in their own right. Or maybe 3+2d3.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:25 am 
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Another mini-batrep.

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My list was testing out Nurgle's Rot, the combined Desecrator/Plague Hulk profile, and the INV5+ Blightlord Terminators.

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Death Guard (NetEA V0.7.0 Taccoms Thread)
===============================

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [390]
Plaguecaster Lord, 4 Plague Marines, 3 Havocs, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), 4 Death Guard Rhino

PLAGUE MARINE RETINUE [355]
Plaguecaster Lord, 7 Plague Marines, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), (Beasts) Beasts of Nurgle

BLIGHTLORD TERMINATORS [440]
4 Blightlord Terminators, Vectorium Lord, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), Nurgling Infestation (1+1D3 Nurgling Swarms), Teleportarium

DEATH GUARD CHOSEN [350]
4 Plague Marine Chosen, Daemonic Pact & Nurgle's Rot (No LD!), 2 (Walkers) Plague Hulk

ARMOURED ASSAULT COMPANY [440]
6 Death Guard Vindicators, Nurgling Infestation (1+1D3 Nurgling Swarms), 2 (Walkers) Plague Hulk

PLAGUE ZOMBIE INFESTATION* [175]
3+2D6 Plague Zombies

PLAGUE ZOMBIE INFESTATION* [175]
3+2D6 Plague Zombies

CONTAGION TOWERS* [325]
4 Contagion Towers

DAEMON POOL [75]
5 Lesser Daemon (Plaguebearers)

FESTER TITAN [275]


This was against DarkAngelDentist's NetEA Dark Angels WIP list, with:
All-bike Ravenwing with Chaplain
2 x Whirlwind
Land Speeder Vengeance (non-scout, AP3/AT4 on the Plasma Battery)
Land Speeder Tornado (garrisoned)
Deathwing with Chaplain
Devastator with 2 Mortis Dreads (garrisoned)
Relic formation of Vindicator Laser Destroyers & Predator Executioners?
Nephilim
Dark Talons


Notable moments included:
The Blightlords and one set of Zombies coming down in the far corner, winning the first Strategy Roll and having the Zombies break one Whirlwind formation with supporting fire from the Blightlords.
The Deathwing coming in behind the Plaguehound Titan, and crossfire meaning that the Devastators wiped it out from full health to dead, without crits.
Stupid numbers of Invulnerable Saves for Death Guard units. I think it ended up being 7-8 across the game! Although it didn't help in the end as it was a 3-2 win to the Dark Angels.

Unit/Rules Feedback:
Nurgle's Rot - kicked in multiple times, gaining me 5-6 Lesser Daemons. As this cost the same as an extra 4 would have to start with, this feels about right - overall you usually get more across the game, but you have to invest extra points to have an initial Daemon Pool.
Blightlord Terminators - their 5+ INV save was irrelevant as the only two INV saves they needed to take were rolls of 6 anyway. Their 15cm AP-only ranged attack was an issue, as the only time they could have used it would have left them intermingled with Zombies that had Blast Markers on them, in range of Whirlwinds and in front of a big bunch of Bikes with MW CC and a Chaplain.
Plague Hulks - the combined profile seems to work OK. As expected, only having four AA wasn't enough and the enemy aircraft made a mess of things, eventually killing the last unit from the Vindicator BTS on the last activation of the game. Their CC MW attacks didn't get used as their formations were targeted heavily.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:29 pm 
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I don't thonk that this list appeals much to me, because of the inability to march, combined with very, very slow movement speed. Might I suggest to remove this rule from the army? I really like the Death Guard theme but don't think it ia a good move to emphasize on their infantry superiority thing they have. Better "Walker" options are better, which you are definitly going for.
Also I would propose to include the Decimator as a daemon engine or as an exchange for the Plague Reaper as it is also a very slow lumbering tank with a big (but much better!) gun.

Currently the best way to play Death Guard is still the Black Legion list and just skip on Bikes and maybe Raptors :(

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:08 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback!

I definitely understand your point on the inability to March (with it's huge impact on the GT scenario), but that's now common to this list, the EpicUK DG list and the Lost and the Damned Redux list. Although it's not in the Red Corsairs list or the Ghallamore Incursion list when I thought it was in both. Also, if you want to see very, very slow movement speed, the Blight Drone dropped to 25cm when it was ported across to the EpicUK list... :-(

Changing it would be a pretty big u-turn after five years of the list being developed around the rule, and require some big changes to units and points.

Decimator - yeah, I'd also love the Decimator, but the Plaguereaper is current GW canon, while the Decimator is now a type of Dreadnought and most background sources for the Decimator as a tank refer back to the Epic Armageddon army list! That said, I'm considering moving the Plaguereapers to Support and giving them the option of Walkers and Contagions.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:23 pm 
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Well UK list is even worse ro be honest... :P

The french don't apply the "no march" rule and have the Decimator SHT instead of the Plaguereaper. Might be easiest to use the stats of the main gun for the PR?

French DG is not Fearless all around too, but still more expensive as save and other values are better. They also have 6 stands Havocs unit I kinda really like.

I like your Spaceship approach, especially the "more than 3BP" thing :)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:21 pm 
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There are bits I like about the FERC Chaos Space Marine lists, but the FERC and NetEA approaches to Chaos Marines are so drastically different that a lot of it simply can’t be ported across.

Take Fearless, for example. Plague Marines in a NetEA Death Guard list have to match Plague Marines in all the other NetEA lists (like the FERC PMs in their Death Guard list match the PMs in their Black Legion list). That means they’re going to be Fearless. As this list is designed to be specifically Death Guard rather than a general Nurgle-themed CSM list, that also means that Plague Marines are the basic trooper as the Death Guard are all Plague Marines rather than a mix of Plague Marines and general CSM.

As far as the Decimator in FERC is concerned, that’s more because FERC Cult Marine lists only have the Decimator, in the same way that FERC Cult Marine lists use the same Titan profiles, the same Defiler profile, the same Chaos Terminator profile etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:07 pm 
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For sure! But maybe it could serve as an inspiration

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:27 pm 
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The Decimator is a fan made unit and not canon. We should steer away from it in new lists (even one that's been in the curious case of being 'new' for like 7+ years ;) ). It lives on as legacy (mainly in BL) but should stay that way. If the plague reaper needs fixing then let's fix it but it's, as noted above, actually a GW canon unit.

edit: personal preference for the Decimator= rename to actual canon Infernal SHTs as found in IA13

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:52 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
The Decimator is a fan made unit and not canon. We should steer away from it in new lists (even one that's been in the curious case of being 'new' for like 7+ years ;) ). It lives on as legacy (mainly in BL) but should stay that way. If the plague reaper needs fixing then let's fix it but it's, as noted above, actually a GW canon unit.

edit: personal preference for the Decimator= rename to actual canon Infernal SHTs as found in IA13

That said, I have been looking at the Plaguereaper again - mainly because I'd misremembered the Decimator as being much more expensive than the Plaguereaper at 275pt, when it's only 225pt, only ~10% more expensive but much more than 10% more effective.

But rather than up-gunning it, I'm looking at removing Fixed Forward Arc from the main gun, as the original version in Apocalypse v1 had the Pus Cannon turret-mounted.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:51 pm 
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The Decimator is hillariously powerful for its price. Fearless, strategy 4, ini 1, 45cm 3pb IC MW will scare the shit out of any bunkered up or armoured formation. It even can look after itself in cc as a 4+cc rating. For lame 225pts. Must have.

For the plague reaper a front fire arc instead of fixed would therefor only be reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:53 pm 
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Did some thinking about this over breakfast, and before responding wanted to run some comparisons against other DC3 barrage-armed war engines with 15cm moves. Mind you, the comparisons are by no means comprehensive:

1) Decimator - 45cm range FFA main gun, 3BP, MW, IC, Disrupt - Fearless - SR 4, IR 1+ - 225pts (Black Legion, Iron Warriors)

2) Stormsword - 45cm range FFA main gun, 3BP, IC, Disrupt - SR 2, IR 2+ - 200pts (Minervans)

3) Plague Reaper - 30cm range FFA main gun, 3BP, IC, Disrupt - Fearless - SR 4, IR 1+ - 200pts, +175pts ea (Death Guard)

Now, baseline biases:

I haven’t played with or against Plaguereapers yet. I’d probably need Gunslinger007 to get back from his mountain climbing expedition for that (seriously, what is up with Taccoms and mountaineering?), so everything here is theorycraft and/or abstracted from using Decimators.

I think the Decimator is reasonably priced for the combination of speed, range, vulnerability to fire, and durability. They have to move to be effective, and firing on a double really reduces their effectiveness against infantry & armor more than people realize on first glance.

Fearless and an IR 1+ for activation really stands out - they’ll keep coming back from breaks and still activate pretty reliably under fire.

For a loss of 15cm, yeah I think the Plaguereaper is reasonably priced at 200, even with Fearless. The range difference looks minor on paper but has a huge impact on the table. It’s a rare day my Decimators ever cycle up their Reaper Autocannons, to the point where I half suspect the crews keep them unloaded :P. Plaguereapers are going to be doing a lot less even on turn 2 than Decimators and Stormswords (possibly still Marching), which grants the opponent more time to unload on solo WEs on their way in and keep them off the midline without having fired a shot back yet.

Removing FFA fits the lore and the GW studio model (it’s a modified Baneblade after all), but also opens up better opportunities for more effective Sustained Fire activations once it’s made it to the midline.

Bottom Line (IMO):

If anything, I’d say take FFA off the main gun, but consider increasing the cost for additional WEs back up to 200pts.

It differentiates the tank from the other vehicles that fill that role while being lore-appropriate. At the same time, because of Fearless if 2-3 of them make it alive to the midline squadroned, you are much more likely to blast Infantry out of cover or off of an objective even without MW, and they still stand a good chance of winning the following turn’s engagement action.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard 0.7
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:43 pm 
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Thanks and thanks.

Armiger84 wrote:
For a loss of 15cm, yeah I think the Plaguereaper is reasonably priced at 200, even with Fearless. The range difference looks minor on paper but has a huge impact on the table. It’s a rare day my Decimators ever cycle up their Reaper Autocannons, to the point where I half suspect the crews keep them unloaded :P. Plaguereapers are going to be doing a lot less even on turn 2 than Decimators and Stormswords (possibly still Marching), which grants the opponent more time to unload on solo WEs on their way in and keep them off the midline without having fired a shot back yet.

And there's the extra issue - the Plaguereaper can't March in the first place! If you want to do stuff up-table with them, you're typically looking at turn 3 before they're in position.

Armiger84 wrote:
Removing FFA fits the lore and the GW studio model (it’s a modified Baneblade after all), but also opens up better opportunities for more effective Sustained Fire activations once it’s made it to the midline.

Bottom Line (IMO):

If anything, I’d say take FFA off the main gun, but consider increasing the cost for additional WEs back up to 200pts.

It differentiates the tank from the other vehicles that fill that role while being lore-appropriate. At the same time, because of Fearless if 2-3 of them make it alive to the midline squadroned, you are much more likely to blast Infantry out of cover or off of an objective even without MW, and they still stand a good chance of winning the following turn’s engagement action.

For the moment I'm going to try some in pairs and triples for a few games at the 200+175+175 cost and see how it goes, partly because it maps so well to the IG Superheavy Company for 500 points.

In addition to 360º fire arc on the main gun, I'm planning to drop from 3 Lascannon to 2, and make the 3 Heavy Bolters into Twin HBs (so AP4+) to keep it more faithful to being a corrupted Baneblade. Also, the Critical effect will hit nearby units on 4+ instead of 6+, because you don't want to be in the area when those tanks of gloop go boom...

The other notably ability of the 40k Plaguereaper was that it was completely infested with Nurglings, with any formation attacking the Plaguereaper taking 3d6 automatic hits at S3, but I think that's already covered well by the CC value of 4+ and the ability to add stands of Nurglings to the formation.


Another notable effect of the 360º turret will be to make them better as blitz guards sitting on Overwatch, as they can no longer get flanked.

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