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[fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders

 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:22 pm 
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My only ask for the Knights to be units of 3 and hellhounds to 6 is so you have some good engage units.

Lots of small fragile groups are still going to make it hard to do the Move a formation to double and shoot, retain with another and engage.

I'm also concerned with small unit s of three for things like the hellhounds. Once glance in their direction, one failed roll and the unit is broken and basically useless thanks to the guard 2+ activation.

Just a few options for the nice one two punch :)


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:03 pm 
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I think the “May not March” rule on the Cavalry makes them pretty unusable, only Sabre Platforms without transports move more slowly.... but at least they can Garrison without using the army special rule which would be best used on a Mechanised Company anyway.

Far from being a raiding army I think it will play quite static as it can’t move much firepower or assault power around very quickly. How does this list bring lots of shooting or assault power to bare?
As a static army it’ll suffer from a lack of scout screens.

I’ll give it a go but I can’t see much in the way of ingredients to win games


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:39 am 
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Hi!

I'm glad to see movement in Tallarn Desert Riders!

But i see some things that I don't understand.

1 - Conqueror: movement 25cm? Why the Tallarn Conquerors are slower than others? Don't shound it be 30cm?

2 - Mukaali Support Cavalry: I think the FF should be better than the FF of a guards stand with that 2 plasma guns, like Storm Troopers, 4+. And with no CC weapon, it should have 5+ CC or even 6+.

3 - Fire Support: Why aren't they an upgrade?

4 - Hellhounds as Support Formations: 3 is too few HHs. It is god as a Upgrade but I think the should be 6.

5 - Desert Riders: Ah... A totally different concept of the DR... I'll try them but it seems they has lost personality.

6 - Griffons a Support Formation: Idem for Griffons: The range of that griffons make them very vulnerable.

7 - Salamanders: It is a great lost. They fix great with lore and they don't overlap with Taurox thanks to their scout rule. Please, give they back to us :wah

8 - Tauros: Why don't make them a free combination of Venators an regulars?

9 - Flak Upgrade: I think it should be one or two units as the snipers.

10 - Marauders: Destroyers were a characteristic from the older list. May be 3 were too much for an only formation but 2 for 275 points sounds good.

In general I think that this list need things that can kill something. I think that dozens of little formations that are most of them LVs, and few in number and activating at 2+ will lead to heavy problems of morale. And the hability to garrison one unit will not make a difference.

Another thing. The standard system of Companies, Support and Upgrades may not be ideal. Some Support Formations seems to fix with some upgrades as some Companies, like the Mukaali, seems that should not be accompanied.

I believe that the intention of a mobile, light and fast list is not achieved even though the units that compose it are. Or rather, it couldn't be only a mobile, light and fast list. I should have some punch.

On the other hand, there are some tings that i like a lot. Mukaalis "May not March" and the +1EA, the add of tauros (Buggies), the Cavalry Commanders, the snipers of the infantry formations...

PD: Again sorry but i'm spanish and don't speak english very well.


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:25 am 
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Ah! One more thing. Chimeras upgrade for the Regimental HQ Company.


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 12:25 pm 
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NerEA stats for conquerors

Leman Russ Conqueror AV 30cm 4+ 6+ 5+
Conqueror Cannon 45cm AP5+/AT5+
Lascannon 45cm AT5+
Reinforced Armour

Any difference is a transcription or other mistake

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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 1:34 am 
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Whiuch of the lists in the first post should I be looking at if I were to help test?


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 1:29 pm 
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I would suggest e&c's .5 to confirm or deny utility of 3 strong formations.

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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:40 am 
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Jimmy, anything else about my other suggestions?

Specially, the chimera upgrade for the HQ Company seems to me a must.


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:11 pm 
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I'm a facilitator not the designer of the 0.5 list, for the record.

Everything should be allowed chimeras or other transports however. I'd test with +25pt per Chimera, no extras allowed, must transport entire formation if taken. I don't think chimeras should be mandatory and shouldn't be an upgrade (should be like steel legion, option on the formation itself).

I bet it's an oversight by e&c

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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:53 pm 
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I thougth you was the designer, sorry. Now I've re-read the first post I've seen it.

Call it option or upgrade. But I think it should be able to be transported. I think it shuoldn't be mandatory neither.

I've been thinking about the list and the concept it want to achieve. If we are looking for a fast list of many activations, the companies that unlock the support formations can not be 250+ points.

Mukualis are good, but if you want eigth Support Formations you have to choose betwen the "cheap" (not much) and static infantry or that good but more expensive Mukualis. That means that 1k ~1200 points has gone just unblocking the 8 support slots.

Then you will get 8 formations of arround 150-200 average points... That is about ~1400 points. And, unless you spend them on Conqueros spam, you don't have anything that really has "punch".

Maybe I'm too noob yet. I will play a tournament with a list based on the 0.5 versión next July 15th. I'll put here my experience with the list.


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Pencanenas wrote:
1 - Conqueror: movement 25cm? Why the Tallarn Conquerors are slower than others? Don't shound it be 30cm?

I used the EUK stats when writing the list.
I'll rewrite that & repoint if necessary.

Quote:
2 - Mukaali Support Cavalry: I think the FF should be better than the FF of a guards stand with that 2 plasma guns, like Storm Troopers, 4+. And with no CC weapon, it should have 5+ CC or even 6+.

I was worried about the power of a 40cm charge range unit with FF4+ and Armour 3+(!).

Plus, one would expect only 3 models per base, as cavalry, rather than 5 as per infantry.

Quote:
3 - Fire Support: Why aren't they an upgrade?

They could go in I suppose. Albeit I doubt they'd ever get used.

Quote:
4 - Hellhounds as Support Formations: 3 is too few HHs. It is god as a Upgrade but I think the should be 6.

This certainly seems to be a common sentiment. :-)

Quote:
6 - Griffons a Support Formation: Idem for Griffons: The range of that griffons make them very vulnerable.

I've used them in the EUK Ulani tank list. They work fine IMO, and are super cheap.

Quote:
7 - Salamanders: It is a great lost. They fix great with lore and they don't overlap with Taurox thanks to their scout rule. Please, give they back to us :wah

Then I'm not sure anyone would ever take the Rough Riders.

Quote:
8 - Tauros: Why don't make them a free combination of Venators an regulars?

Because everyone would take only the twin lascannon variant. :-)

Quote:
9 - Flak Upgrade: I think it should be one or two units as the snipers.

Flak is a special case - like Hydras, I don't think it should be too freely available.

Quote:
10 - Marauders: Destroyers were a characteristic from the older list. May be 3 were too much for an only formation but 2 for 275 points sounds good.

As it's not an "air cav" specialist list (or similar) I figured it should have the standard aircraft.
List building should try to avoid including things that are cool,

Quote:
In general I think that this list need things that can kill something. I think that dozens of little formations that are most of them LVs, and few in number and activating at 2+ will lead to heavy problems of morale.

What do you mean by "kill something"?

Quote:
And the hability to garrison one unit will not make a difference.

Quite a lot of the army can already garrison. That's one additional on top of that.

Quote:
I believe that the intention of a mobile, light and fast list is not achieved even though the units that compose it are. Or rather, it couldn't be only a mobile, light and fast list. I should have some punch.

Such as?

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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:25 pm 
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Having thought some more on this list I think it could well work, I’m going to try the following:

400 Mukaali (Hellhounds) (Lightening Raid forward deployment)
450 Mech Inf (Sabre + Chimera) (Blitz-guard/Marcher & BTS)
275 Infantry Coy (Sabre) (Garrison)
325 HQ Coy (Sabre) (Garrison)

175 Rough Riders (Garrison)
175 Rough Riders (Garrison)
275 Desert Raiders (4 Chimera) (Garrison)
275 Desert Raiders (4 Chimera) (Garrison)
175 Sabre (Flak Rush & Prepping)
175 Sabre (Flak Rush & Prepping)

150 Thunderbolts
150 Thunderbolts

The idea is two powerful combined assaults garrisoned forward (mounted Desert Raiders, Rough Riders, Mukaali).

I still think the list is a bit on the weak side, my gut says it could do with the following:

Cavalry Commander +1cc attack
Lightening Raid, 1 per 1500pts rather than 2000
The Hellhound and Griffin formations having a choice of being 3 or 6 strong
The Knight option being a 1-3 Knights in a formation
Remove the HQ formation and make the Supreme Commander a 0-1 50pt upgrade


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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Pencanenas wrote:
1 - Conqueror: movement 25cm? Why the Tallarn Conquerors are slower than others? Don't shound it be 30cm?

I used the EUK stats when writing the list.
I'll rewrite that & repoint if necessary.

serves you right using that silly Ulani list ;)

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
2 - Mukaali Support Cavalry: I think the FF should be better than the FF of a guards stand with that 2 plasma guns, like Storm Troopers, 4+. And with no CC weapon, it should have 5+ CC or even 6+.

I was worried about the power of a 40cm charge range unit with FF4+ and Armour 3+(!).

Plus, one would expect only 3 models per base, as cavalry, rather than 5 as per infantry.

Maybe they need a hard limit? I don't want to suggest pulling things like infiltrator because then it becomes a millstone. it's a hard one. =/

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
3 - Fire Support: Why aren't they an upgrade?

They could go in I suppose. Albeit I doubt they'd ever get used.

There's lots of fluff based options that exist in lists that people in the competitive world don't use. Doesn't cause any harm.


Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
6 - Griffons a Support Formation: Idem for Griffons: The range of that griffons make them very vulnerable.

I've used them in the EUK Ulani tank list. They work fine IMO, and are super cheap.

Yeah 6 strong griffons with their IF is a fun cheap BM laying burner formation.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
10 - Marauders: Destroyers were a characteristic from the older list. May be 3 were too much for an only formation but 2 for 275 points sounds good.

As it's not an "air cav" specialist list (or similar) I figured it should have the standard aircraft.
List building should try to avoid including things that are cool,

We literally have blue dinosaur cav because it is cool. :P

RugII wrote:
I still think the list is a bit on the weak side, my gut says it could do with the following:

Cavalry Commander +1cc attack
Lightening Raid, 1 per 1500pts rather than 2000
The Hellhound and Griffin formations having a choice of being 3 or 6 strong
The Knight option being a 1-3 Knights in a formation
Remove the HQ formation and make the Supreme Commander a 0-1 50pt upgrade

I like these ideas. Rug's suggestions kind allow both approaches to the list theme work well.

I've never been a big fan of the weird 0-1 HQ formation that's just a single unit swap from the core formation that's been found in guard lists since forever as well. I mean it works in SL and DKoK fine enough to represent the ponderous inflexibility of guard in general but in a more "get'er done damn the rules" slightly unorthodox and irregular themed force like tallarn could do with something else. So a more generalized SC Ch that can be stuck in wherever probably is more thematic and simpler if you think about it. Laurence of Arabia charging on his camel blue dinosaur across the desert is just as appropriate here as sitting in a light tank screaming "drive closer I want to hit them with my sword". Nice nod to them being one of the less attrition based armies in the fluff and allowing more flexibility over your avg guard list.

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Tue May 28, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:04 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
serves you right using that silly Ulani list ;)

:spin

Quote:
Maybe they need a hard limit? I don't want to suggest pulling things like infiltrator because then it becomes a millstone. it's a hard one. =/

I reckon they might be okay as-is... I'm certainly interested to try them out, at least.

Quote:
We literally have blue dinosaur cav because it is cool. :P

Dinosaurs are a special exception. :-p

Quote:
Quote:
Cavalry Commander +1cc attack
Lightening Raid, 1 per 1500pts rather than 2000
The Hellhound and Griffin formations having a choice of being 3 or 6 strong
The Knight option being a 1-3 Knights in a formation
Remove the HQ formation and make the Supreme Commander a 0-1 50pt upgrade

I like these ideas. Rug's suggestions kind allow both approaches to the list theme work well.

They look good to me.

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 Post subject: Re: [fanlist] Tallarn Desert Raiders
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:29 pm 
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how about this, yall?

[FILE DELETED-SEE Pg 1]

options also to see if silly ulani vs almost as silly minervan style conquerors are a best fit (different prices of course) ;)

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Thu May 30, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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