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Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:43 am 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
I guess the thing to consider with the ratio is that if you compare to say steel legion the karskin core are only 50 points different so across say 2-3 units of core you'd be looking at maybe 1 activation difference.

And normal gaurd armies can take warhounds which allows them to take 3-4 effective war engine choices where's Cadians are already limited massively unless you want to take a big titan. I don't really think there's much evidence of spam here that isn't in other gaurd lists.

If I had my computer I'd post my 12 activation DKOK or 15 activation Baran siegemasters both of which are approved lists.

The warlord could be an issue, that list above really shows that, I wonder if Cadians should even have titan support.... I'd imagine that the reason barans don't have the option is to reflect the mass activation they can do... Perhaps better balance could be achieved with just access to the leviathan and some ordinatus options?
That's a better explanation of my point earlier :)
I have nothing against dropping Titans all together.
(But then I only play 3000 points and think the Warlord is pricy at that range. Should I play 4000 it might see more playtime...)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:25 am 
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I guess the reason 3000pts is so important is that it's the competitive standard so the lists must be balanced for that level. Anything bigger than that frankly players can and should do what they want. If you decided to scrap Titans from Cadians I would love with that if I went to a Comp. If I was playing 4000pts with a mate I'd just run the Titans regardless because I'd be playing a totally different game structure.

For flavour purposes it could be interesting to go with just ordinatus and planes as WE choices and maybe even include 2 different ordinatus choices? As in maybe they can get the sonic bp one and the macro zaap one they already have now or something. But that's only if you were concerned that cutting Titans limits the options too much to keep the list interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
For flavour purposes it could be interesting to go with just ordinatus and planes as WE choices and maybe even include 2 different ordinatus choices? As in maybe they can get the sonic bp one and the macro zaap one they already have now or something. But that's only if you were concerned that cutting Titans limits the options too much to keep the list interesting.
Thanks for the suggestion but we will not add more Ordinatus options in this list. IF we take away the titans and we all feel a little bit sad we might add something... perhaps. :)
Right now we have a concern that the "Warlord list" is too good but I am not convinced, so no changes yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:52 pm 
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Fudd wrote:

And then there's what you can do with a warlord in this list....

================================================

CADIAN REGIMENTAL HEADQUARTERS [575]
1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units and 1 Leviathan Mobile Command Centre, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

WARLORD CLASS TITAN [825]




Food for thought?

Played around a little with the armybuilder to see what the steel legion could do with a Warlord. Just so we can have something to compare with. In my opinion the Steel legion is one of the core armies that is far from being broken and it has seen a lot of battles without changing. So my theory is if they can build a similar list it is not a problem...
I only got 10 activation's (2 less) and they do not have a leviathan so it is different. Still it is kind of similar but it might have a little more punch in engagements and not so many hassling units. Perhaps a little better och worse, what do you think?

Incompertus, 2975 POINTS
Steel Legion (NetEA Army Compendium v2014)
==================================================

WARLORD CLASS TITAN [825]

SUPER-HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 Hydra

MECHANISED INFANTRY COMPANY [400]
Commander, 12 Infantry, 7 Chimera

REGIMENTAL HQ [550]
Supreme Commander, 12 Infantry, 7 Chimera, Hydra

SENTINEL SQUADRON [100]
4 Sentinels

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

INFANTRY COMPANY [250]
Commander, 12 Infantry

DEATHSTRIKE MISSILE BATTERY [200]
2 Deathstrike Missile Launchers


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:10 am 
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I play SL, the Sentinels will more than likely break after first engagement, normally for the price of a WL you could go with a single WH and a pack. Gives the extra activations, plus something for your opponent to chase


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:17 am 
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Unfortunately I feel that steel legion list is incomparable to the Cadian one

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:47 am 
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Hey Uvenlord, 'fraid your list is illegal, you can only have one tbolt formation with the warlord in there, maybe take another flak battery or some rough riders instead? also drop a sniper in one of the infantry companies to use up the 25 points :)

looking at the two lists, I'd say the steel legion (or a tweaked version of it) is the one I'd go for myself, having the two mechanised infantry companies makes it much faster and better in engagements, while an overwatching infantry company sat on the blitz in hard cover with a commissar is a pretty fearsome prospect to shift

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Last edited by kyussinchains on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:50 am 
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DKOK can comfotably get to 10 activations with all bases covered, as can IF. I've not found many lists that can get above 10 with a warlord without seriously lacking in some area.

Also that Steel Legion list isn't bad but 2 activations is a big difference... Also I think your deathstrikes/shadowsword is pretty much overkill.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:43 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
Before we start please share your opinions and tell me if you think stuff is too good or bad or if something is missing etc.

Concerns:
1. The Ordinatus. I have been close to taking this piece away from the list several times for two reasons. Fluff wise I really do not see why the Cadians should have this unit. It might be mentioned once or so that they own a ordinatus but... Also it is a shock troop army not a home base defense force. It is also quite powerful and hard to balance. That said it kind of fit the theme with war engines and stuff... (I also have converted and painted one)
2. Slow. The army is very slow, almost to the point of it being boring sometimes. If the opponent pick out your faster units you are stuck at 15 or 20 cm move. Perhaps this is not a big issue but please share our opinion when testing. (There are several fast units in the list so it might be playstyle or listbuilding that makes them slow sometimes :) )
3. Spam. They have "cheap" shock troops and sentinels. Perhaps this can also be an issue. It has been brought up at least but I do not feel that it is a big concern but please try it and tell me your opinions.

Preferred opponents: I rarely play against nids, chaos or necrons. Besides that, why not start with some games and I will compile a list and we will see later on what type of army that is missing etc?

Any takers? :)


Now that I have more free time I'll play more, but I've been testing my Konig Armoured Regiment list lately. I feel like fielding my Cadians after a long time!! :D so I hope I can help with some more games.

My opinion:
1.- I would almost never use the Ordinatus, but those guns are tempting. Nothing to say here.
2.- I've played Cadia a lot, using other lists, and for it isn't that slow. Infantry would garrison and the rest of the army is fast armoured units, so...
3.- 175 seems like a very low points cost for an IG core formation, but we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:20 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Hey Uvenlord, 'fraid your list is illegal
Thanks for the catch, was playing around a little too much with the builder :)

So I do not think we will get any longer in theory, please try out spamming kasrkin in different forms. If it is a problem we have a couple of solutions. (restrictions, taking away the warlord etc)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:12 pm 
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I'd just like to clarify a couple of things.

The points I raised showing a solid "spammy" build and the warlord build would be focal points, in my opinion for testing for various gaming groups around the world to potentially give some feedback and thoughts on during the process leading up to going for approval.
I wasn't claiming that the army is broken. Play testing may clear those concerns up.

The warlord isn't even that great of a deal, It's just that Cadians feel like the best option for trying to run a warlord and getting the most number of effective activations.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 12:23 pm 
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Played on the weekend against Tau (3500 points):

Cadian Shock Troops:
- Reg HQ
- Kasrkin Co
- Kasrkin Co + Psyker
- Kasrkin Co + Fire Support

- Artillery Battery Basilisks
- Artillery Battery Manticores
- Deathstrike Battery

- Flak Battery
- Flak Battery

- SHT: Stormsword
- Vulture Squadron
- Tank Platoon: Demolishers

- Thunderbolts
- Colossus

Vior'la Tau:
- Crisis Battlesuits + Shas'o + 2 drones
- Crisis Battlesuits + 2 drones
- Mech Fire Warriors + Pathfinders + Cadre Fireblade

- Recon: 2 Tetras + 3 Piranha
- Recon: 2 Tetras + 3 Piranha

- Riptides + 2 drones
- Riptides + 2 drones

- Skysweep Support
- Manta

- Barracudas
- Barracudas
- Sunsharks

I set Kasrkin Co + Psyker & Kasrkin Co + Fire Support as garrison on my right flank, in order to avoid too much footslogging. Ignore Cover tanks would support them. They managed to hold half of the Tau thanks to artillery support.

Very bad luck on both sides. 8 missiles from Vultures and the 2 Deathstrikes only managed two cause 1 point of damage on Manta, which strikes back on the Reg HQ only managing to lightly damage the Leviathan.

Supported assaults against Riptides made the day. Artillery fire + Deathstrikes odd bolter shots + Vultures destroyed the Crisis formation containing the Supreme Commander. Lack of re-roll was critical as Manta failed to double into my side of the table. So Cadia wins 2-0 with They Shall Not Pass and Defend the Flag.

I wanted to try a slow, heavy artillery list with some IC tanks. I'd like to field faster formations but my Hellhounds and Griffons are not ready yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:25 am 
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I just got this army and where wondering what specifically we are looking to test. I own everything bur the ordinious but would be happy to proxy it. I saw that your looking for games against a cron player so ill try and make that happen we only have one in our group


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:54 pm 
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Inhir wrote:
I just got this army and where wondering what specifically we are looking to test. I own everything bur the ordinious but would be happy to proxy it. I saw that your looking for games against a cron player so ill try and make that happen we only have one in our group
Welcome :)
Well the testing is on slow burn so you are welcome to just play games and report them and tell us what you think.
Some people have expressed their concern about spamming cheap units (basically kasrkin with a warlord or similar) You could try that also if you like,
I have a limited playgroup so if you can get a game or two against "exotic" races (Necrons for example) that would be much appreciated :)

/Uven


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:54 pm 
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When i download v. 1.56 from page one. I get the 1.55?


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