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Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:56 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
junkstar wrote:
Looking at making this army list and was wondering what vehicles players are using as the stormlord?
I use these
Attachment:
20160312_130622.jpg


But a Baneblade or any of the other superheavy tanks will do I guess. I also think that some other manufacturer made a very good proxy with the right guns in front and all...'


Sorted now O0


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:53 pm 
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junkstar wrote:
uvenlord wrote:
junkstar wrote:
Looking at making this army list and was wondering what vehicles players are using as the stormlord?
I use these
Attachment:
20160312_130622.jpg


But a Baneblade or any of the other superheavy tanks will do I guess. I also think that some other manufacturer made a very good proxy with the right guns in front and all...'


Sorted now O0
Nice!


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:46 am 
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So Cadians

How far are we along the developmental process do we think?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:49 am 
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It'd be super handy if we could get this approved by... say, I dunno, The end of July? ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:25 pm 
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I guess yall better get on those batreps then, huh? :P

Actually yes, this list has been languishing far too long just shy of the finish line. Uven, can you lay out a plan that us plebs can focus on with this to drag her to a submittable status? Matchups and builds would would be great. Like for instance has this list even ever seen combat say against Nids or SF for instance? I know you had need of validating the Ordinatus, right?

I'm down to knock out some vassal games with this, toot sweet

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:49 pm 
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Well, the list is finished as far as I am concerned.
The problem with getting it approved is the non existing players that make battlereports :)
I'm having a little break from Epic right now so my group rarely plays, and when it does I have been unfaithful and played with some wolves instead...but if there is interest in getting it approved I will get my share done.

If I see 2-3 battlereports done, then I will force my friends to play against me 6 times within a couple of months.

Before we start please share your opinions and tell me if you think stuff is too good or bad or if something is missing etc.

Concerns:
1. The Ordinatus. I have been close to taking this piece away from the list several times for two reasons. Fluff wise I really do not see why the Cadians should have this unit. It might be mentioned once or so that they own a ordinatus but... Also it is a shock troop army not a home base defense force. It is also quite powerful and hard to balance. That said it kind of fit the theme with war engines and stuff... (I also have converted and painted one)
2. Slow. The army is very slow, almost to the point of it being boring sometimes. If the opponent pick out your faster units you are stuck at 15 or 20 cm move. Perhaps this is not a big issue but please share our opinion when testing. (There are several fast units in the list so it might be playstyle or listbuilding that makes them slow sometimes :) )
3. Spam. They have "cheap" shock troops and sentinels. Perhaps this can also be an issue. It has been brought up at least but I do not feel that it is a big concern but please try it and tell me your opinions.

Preferred opponents: I rarely play against nids, chaos or necrons. Besides that, why not start with some games and I will compile a list and we will see later on what type of army that is missing etc?

Any takers? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:08 pm 
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Well all my DRM minis arrived last night so I plan to try and have this army knocked up and constructed to at least playing phase in the next 3-4 weeks. I'll try and contribute.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:11 pm 
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Models are not required to test :)

I'm kinda a fan of the ordinatus. Wonky but I still love it regardless

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:23 am 
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Gents,

Just going to give some feedback and highlight a couple of things that are just my opinion...

On your concerns unverlord,

The Ordinatus: I agree, the formations doesn't fit and I just can't see the army really needing it.

Slowness: This feels like a non point for what the list should be. If the list had a lot of fast elements that would lead to unbalance considering the strengths of the list which i'll further highlight at the end of this post with a couple of builds.

Spam: Easily going to be the problem with the list. I realise they're not exactly rock hard formations that can be spammed.

Unfortunately I dont have any magic wand to wave over or ideas to fix this, I would just like to see it have some attention prior to approval :D

First is what I feel is a really solid "all comer" build:

==============================================

CADIAN REGIMENTAL HEADQUARTERS [575]
1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units and 1 Leviathan Mobile Command Centre, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [200]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [200]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [200]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

THUNDERBOLT FIGHTERS [150]
2 Thunderbolts

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

DEATHSTRIKE BATTERY [200]
2 Deathstrike Missile Launchers

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

MECHANIZED KASRKIN [300]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units, 4 Valkyries

MECHANIZED KASRKIN [300]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units, 4 Valkyries



And then there's what you can do with a warlord in this list....

================================================

CADIAN REGIMENTAL HEADQUARTERS [575]
1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander unit, 7 Kasrkin units and 1 Leviathan Mobile Command Centre, Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

KASRKIN INFANTRY COMPANY [175]
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit and 7 Kasrkin units

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

FLAK BATTERY [150]
3 hydras

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SENTINEL SQUADRON [125]
6 Cadian Sentinels

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

SUPER HEAVY TANK PLATOON [200]
Shadowsword

WARLORD CLASS TITAN [825]




Food for thought?

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:07 am 
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The Warlord list is pretty phenomenal and has been discussed in our club a few times as being pretty devastating, more so than even the IF Warlord build

Not sure where you would go solving it though.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:03 am 
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Mard wrote:
Not sure where you would go solving it though.


Implement max 1 Kasrkin Infantry company per Cadian Infantry company. Yes they're a big part of Cadian forces and a strong theme behind a good list, but I see that as a reasonable opportunity cost that doesn't overprice the unit itself and doesn't cripple the theme.

On Battle Psykers: They're listed as Inf unit types and the list mentions adding Psyker UNITS, rather than characters to a unit, all fine so far. However they have an Invulnerable Save and no armour value listed. Am I missing something really obvious, or is that a bug?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:55 am 
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Fudd: Hmm, I need suggestions on how to change things if the spam really is a problem. I would like to try your lists before doing anything though. Or if you post a couple of reports.
The Warlord spam is similar to what codex marines can do: 1 warlord, 10+ scouts and some other units. Not really sure this is a good list. The warlord is kind of expensive for what you get (at least in 3000p games) and Kasrkin on foot need to run the first turn or two... Still I hear you and will try it out :)
Your first build is probably a lot better so it might be a concern...

Doomkitten wrote:
Mard wrote:
Not sure where you would go solving it though.


Implement max 1 Kasrkin Infantry company per Cadian Infantry company. Yes they're a big part of Cadian forces and a strong theme behind a good list, but I see that as a reasonable opportunity cost that doesn't overprice the unit itself and doesn't cripple the theme.

On Battle Psykers: They're listed as Inf unit types and the list mentions adding Psyker UNITS, rather than characters to a unit, all fine so far. However they have an Invulnerable Save and no armour value listed. Am I missing something really obvious, or is that a bug?
Not liking the restriction but it it might solve things but then we need a similar approach on the sentinels.

Nothing wrong with the psykers save. (I hope :o ) They are a unit not a character. They do not wear armour but have a small psychic shield :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:04 am 
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I think there's some merit in recognising though, that the spam formations and and the formations you feel are ineffective because they have to walk across the board, they're doing a job within the army to help make the rest of the army more effective.
Plus if they're left unattended by the opponent play their own part late game anyway.
Has the list been trialled with 1 core unlocking 2 support rather than 3?

I dont actually play Cadians, its just a list thats seen some use within my community and I did not write the above lists, they're the ones that have stood out to me.

lastly, I think you're heavily underestimating the strength and flat out value for money the warlord brings.

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Last edited by Fudd on Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:24 am 
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Fudd wrote:
I think there's some merit in recognising though, that the spam formations and and the formations you feel are ineffective because they have to walk across the board, their doing a job within the army to help make the rest of the army more effective.
Plus if they're left unattended by the opponent play their own part late game anyway.
Has the list been trialled with 1 core unlocking 2 support rather than 3?

I dont actually play Cadians, its just a list thats seen some use within my community and I did not write the above lists, they're the ones that have stood out to me.

lastly, I think you're heavily underestimating the strength and flat out value for money the warlord brings.
Yes, I agree on most of your point but... :)
are spamming so good that it needs tweaking? I think we need to test this out some more, that's why I would like people to watch out for this. I think it might be a problem but I have not seen it so far. Other armies can do similar tricks but they are not considered "broken" ether.

I have not tried unlocking 2 instead of 1. Would it matter since Kasrkin is core? (At work now so a little limited but will try building some tonight)

I have faced a Warlord list several times and base my assumptions on my experience, I might be wrong but here are my thoughts:
The Warlords strongest asset is that it can stand on the Blitz and deny BTS and the Blitz objective. By doing so the damage it will cause can be limited by "hiding".
If you go around and shoot stuff with the Warlord it is good but still have a mix of weapons so it need the right target to be really effective. And it only has 3 turns to kill. Most times it does not destroy a formation but cripple it. So the opponent risk loosing most of 2-3 formations and the Warlord cost 700 points...
That said your point might be valid and my meta might be very different but unless you can engage something big and expensive I find that it is rarely worth the money.

Like I said before, there have been very few reports so it's kind of hard for me to tell how the list is doing.

/Uven


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:13 am 
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I guess the thing to consider with the ratio is that if you compare to say steel legion the karskin core are only 50 points different so across say 2-3 units of core you'd be looking at maybe 1 activation difference.

And normal gaurd armies can take warhounds which allows them to take 3-4 effective war engine choices where's Cadians are already limited massively unless you want to take a big titan. I don't really think there's much evidence of spam here that isn't in other gaurd lists.

If I had my computer I'd post my 12 activation DKOK or 15 activation Baran siegemasters both of which are approved lists.

The warlord could be an issue, that list above really shows that, I wonder if Cadians should even have titan support.... I'd imagine that the reason barans don't have the option is to reflect the mass activation they can do... Perhaps better balance could be achieved with just access to the leviathan and some ordinatus options?


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