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Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Lowering the cost on the Storm Lord is a GREAT call. Are you making vultures a support choice, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:30 am 
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Question for people's in the know.


1) the guys that are supporting combat from the leviathan can they be hit in cc? Are they using their ff value always or do they do BTB against guys torching the leviathan? Or can they choose like a war machine?

2) leviathan can take 16 units but dedicated transport overrides the option to thro a second unit of storm troopers in there right? It's just for if you wanted to boost the numbers of the first unit?

Storm lords dropping is a great idea. I wish someone would do the same for bane blades!


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:15 am 
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Yup, Vultures will be a support choice.

1) Not 100% sure if the units inside the leviathan can be targeted in an engagemant, but when I play they can, but only after the leviathan have had its full share of hits.
The units inside always uses its FF value, I think it is written out in the notes on the Leviathan. Please check and report back if it still is unclear so I can change the wording to something better :)
2) You are right, the WE can not take other formations. So the extra seats is for upgrades, I usually take some sabre plattforms for AA protecktion.

Was looking at the Gorgon (125 points for 2) so the the drop to 175 for 1 was the least I could do :) Even if the changes goes through it will be 175 points for 2. Sure the Gorgon do not have the same firepower but still it only costs half as much. Was playing around with lowering them to 150 points but I do not really know if it is the Gorgons that are too cheap instead so I started with a small step for mankind... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 7:15 am 
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Hurray for all your proposed changes. I like adding vultures most of all.


Last edited by Krigsminister on Sat May 23, 2015 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:01 am 
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uvenlord wrote:
1) Not 100% sure if the units inside the leviathan can be targeted in an engagemant, but when I play they can, but only after the leviathan have had its full share of hits.
The units inside always uses its FF value, I think it is written out in the notes on the Leviathan. Please check and report back if it still is unclear so I can change the wording to something better :)

There's no uncertainty in the basic rules as far as I know. Transported units cannot be targeted or hit. If you want that to be a possibillity Uven then you have to add that to the description in the notes about them being able to use fire/FF.

Edit: I'd advise against it though. I think it's probably hard to write that note in an easy way. Would they count as in cover? What cover save should they then have? 3+ like fortifications or? Since they can also fire in a shooting action does that mean they should also be able to be targeted by AP fire? Would they be protected by the void shields?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 5:36 pm 
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Borka wrote:
uvenlord wrote:
1) Not 100% sure if the units inside the leviathan can be targeted in an engagemant, but when I play they can, but only after the leviathan have had its full share of hits.
The units inside always uses its FF value, I think it is written out in the notes on the Leviathan. Please check and report back if it still is unclear so I can change the wording to something better :)

There's no uncertainty in the basic rules as far as I know. Transported units cannot be targeted or hit. If you want that to be a possibillity Uven then you have to add that to the description in the notes about them being able to use fire/FF.

Edit: I'd advise against it though. I think it's probably hard to write that note in an easy way. Would they count as in cover? What cover save should they then have? 3+ like fortifications or? Since they can also fire in a shooting action does that mean they should also be able to be targeted by AP fire? Would they be protected by the void shields?
Right, lets leave the text as it is to keep things simple. They can shoot out but not be shot at :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:38 am 
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Ok doke. So they are immune to shooting and engagement. Until their transport gets blown up anyway...


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:01 pm 
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It's the same for Dark Eldar troops. (their transports quite a lot more fragile though).


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 7:28 pm 
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Updated the list with all the changes.
The Stormlord ended up being 150 points.

/Uven


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:51 am 
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Hi Uvenlord.

It's been a few months with nothing new so my question is are we keen for this to be pushed through to proper approved status or are we happy just letting it chill?

If you want to move it forward, what are you going to need? What's the timeframe?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:29 am 
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Also some brief feedback from my first 7 games with Cadians. I played in a tourney last weekend which was 3 games only, 16 players. I managed to draw AMTL, Chaos Titans and Ork Gargants in that order!

I'm running a fairly high activation list based around stormtroopers as the main troopers (14 activations) and from that have been getting some mixed feedback regarding the power level of the list.

TBH I'm not fussed about complaints to do with activation count, plenty of lists have the option to spam that but there were 2 Cadian specific issues identified by the TO.

1) Cadian Sentinels (the 6 man non scout unit) seem very cheap for what they can do.

Whilst I get that giving up scout is a big sacrifice it does feel like you are getting 2 bonuses to compensate when either one would be adequate. I would happily pay 100pts for 4 “cadian” pattern sentinels without scout. Alternatively 4 standard patterns or 6 non scout but still standard patterns would also feel about right.

2)Psykers – The TO felt that these were also very good for their points, I ran 7 of them overall, all in units of Stormtroopers (the 7th was because I couldn’t afford an 8th!)
Personally I don’t agree with him on this one (but I’ll link in so he can say his own piece). The feeling is that BC/FF 4+ macro is very good for the points. My comparison would be to Ogryns, they have a 4+ attack in BC, and a 4+ Macro BC and a 5+ FF attack, so clearly the psyker has an offensive advantage. However considering the pskyer has no armour and the Ogryn has a 3+ save I feel these are comparable. They are both the same points just that you need to buy Ogryn’s in 50pt lots. Not sure if others have mentioned these guys?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:28 am 
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Hi, nice to see that someone is playing with the Cadians. Sadly the interest has not been that big, both from me and other player so my ambition right now is "chilling" :)
But by all means if you are up for 6 battlereports and we feel that the list is stable I'll do the same and perhaps we can get some movement from other players.
The timeframe would in that case be to get the battles done within 4 months, or what do you think? (February)

Looking at your opponents I'm not that surprised you got three Draws. Titans is really hard to win (and loose) against.
I would very much like to see your list!
Personally I struggle with activations but that's because I like to take Warengines so my build is probably very different from yours.

My personal opinion on the list is that they have a really hard time winning because of their (often) slow core units. That said I do not think they are bad, but compared with my other armies this one is the one I'm struggling to win with. Never tried to spam cheap units so perhaps that's the trick :)

1. Agree, but my main reasoning here is that they still take up a support slot and I think that scout is better then the higher unit count (and stat boost) I have been toying around with the idea to drop the ordinary sentinels all together to compensate for their better stat line. But on a whole I like to pay 100 points for an activation no matter what I consists of :)
And besides that they do not feel like a game breaking unit. Perhaps they could be boosted to 125 points but right now I'll just leave them until others also think they are a problem if it is ok with you?
2. The Psykers feels ok to me. Perhaps we could make them 50 for the pair if the issue is to big. But I agree with you.
The two answers above need to be revised if the activation "spamming" becomes a big problem. Will try some builds and get back to you within a couple of days.

My concerns about the list is more connected to spamming hellhounds and the ordinatus but that might be my gaming environment or my playstyle so your info is much appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:30 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
But by all means if you are up for 6 battlereports and we feel that the list is stable I'll do the same and perhaps we can get some movement from other players.
The timeframe would in that case be to get the battles done within 4 months, or what do you think? (February)


I could do 6 by then, shouldn't be a drama at all. My primary focus would be on the impact of the psykers, the usefulness of sentinels, especially thoughts on the better type we have given that normal sentinel spam is still doable anyway and so it's more about the armour/weapon upgrade.

uvenlord wrote:
Looking at your opponents I'm not that surprised you got three Draws. Titans is really hard to win (and loose) against.
I would very much like to see your list!
Personally I struggle with activations but that's because I like to take Warengines so my build is probably very different from yours.


Woops... in hindsight that was really badly written... I didn't get 3 draws, I beat them all. >:D 2-0, 3-0, VP win

My list was:

Cadian Shock Troopers (NetEA v1.5 *DEVELOPMENT*)
Cadian Regimental Headquarters 600
1 Imperial Guard Supreme Commander unit
7 Kasrkin units
1 Leviathan Mobile Command Centre
Sanctioned Psykers (2 Sanctioned Psyker units)

Kasrkin Infantry Company 225
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit
7 Kasrkin units
Sanctioned Psykers (2 Sanctioned Psyker units)

Kasrkin Infantry Company 225
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit
7 Kasrkin units
Sanctioned Psykers (2 Sanctioned Psyker units)

Kasrkin Infantry Company 200
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit
7 Kasrkin units
Sanctioned Psykers (1 Sanctioned Psyker unit)

Sentinel Squadron 100
6 Cadian Sentinels

Sentinel Squadron 100
6 Cadian Sentinels

Sentinel Squadron 100
6 Cadian Sentinels

Deathstrike Battery 200
2 Deathstrike Missile Launchers

Super Heavy Tank Platoon 200
Shadowsword

Flak Battery 150
3 hydras

Airborne Kasrkin 300
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit
7 Kasrkin units
4 Valkyries

Airborne Kasrkin 300
1 Imperial Guard Commander unit
7 Kasrkin units
4 Valkyries

Thunderbolt Fighters 150
2 Thunderbolts

Thunderbolt Fighters 150
2 Thunderbolts

Then number of activations allowed me to really put bodies all over the map (like a Tyranid army does) though the counter was that the titans I was facing were deleting formations every turn quite effectively. People did seem to have a strong reaction to the activation count but I can't really comprehend that as a legitimate complaint, surely activation count is a strategy with a clear trade off in individual unit effectiveness. It's like me complaining that the plasma reaver is unfair because it wipes out a full unit of troopers with every volley!

Also I reckon in hindsight that 2nd unit of Valks can go, I really needed another shadowsword, I spent most of my games engaging titans with stormtroopers... it was cool... but not always great... and the body count was atrocious.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:21 pm 
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Thanks, so just let me digest this for a while and congrats to the victory :)

What was your strategy? Looks to me like if someone takes down the Valkyries you have a big logistic problem... Perhaps the numbers is enough to control the board anyway?

What objectives did you generally take?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:26 am 
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You are right about the valks. Their inclusion is essentially the blitz taking option that replaces the loss of the mandatory and I find them very awkward. Stuck between wanting to use them for engagement and wanting to shoot the missiles, stuck between putting the troopers inside for the move/engage or leave them out for safety. Getting stuck when a valk dies etc. overall I'd rather have warhounds!

Objectives differ between games but generally speaking:

BTS - almost unobtainable. I don't have a big bitty unit that can conquer all before it so I usually done try. I took one in the 3 games largely thanks to deathstrikes doing their job against a reaver titan.

Blitz - always nice but very difficult. Interestingly I took two of them on the weekend. The first was against the loyal Titans and was taken by a unit of stormies who ran from one side of the board to the other! The second was a valks unit and took it off the chaos Titans who didn't have enough activations to be everywhere.

They shall not pass - my army has the bodies to be from one need of the table to the other which is helpful so it's a possibility but given they can rally and still count it's a crapshoot most of the time.

Take and hold - definitely on my priority list. Against Titans it's pretty easy given their limited objective deployment options. Against something like tyranids this is much harder!

Hold the line. - my primary objective - I tend to garrison a fair bit and count on starting on and holding objectives rather than planning to jump guys on their at the last minute.


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