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The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?

 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:07 am 
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Actually I know a player in out local group, who tested the list! And Koshi is also interested in sheperding the list :)

So it's not dead, it has some good ideas, just need to be balanced. with a lot of playtesting :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:31 pm 
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pati wrote:
Actually I know a player in out local group, who tested the list! And Koshi is also interested in sheperding the list :)

So it's not dead, it has some good ideas, just need to be balanced. with a lot of playtesting :D

Who's the Army AC?

Maybe you can offer to help or take the lead??##

Maybe take away a couple of options to reduce the sense that list is cherrypicking the best bits of IG and SM.

Otherwise go for earlier IG + SM Ally suggestion for larger games.

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:28 am 
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AC is Chroma. He isn't very active yet. So maybe another one may take the lead.

Changes maybe:

Drop Terminators and Landing Craft.
Maybe drop the Land Speeder upgrade from the assaults.

So then there are only elements from not-1st Company. So no Manticores firing at a Blitz Guard formation and then retaining with an engage from the Terminators.

Only the option with TH inside Assaults and Devas is possible. But TH can be shoot down, formations cost much more... Maybe more balanced.


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:55 am 
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It'll need a LOT of work and balancing and personally I don't think it's worth it. What's a Saranes Expanse anyway? I know a lot of background and have never heard of it.

If there's to be a combined Guard and Marine list wouldn't the obvious better theme to be an Ultramar pdf? Specifically defensive Guard, fortifications and small numbers of marines would seem to fit the bill.


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:31 pm 
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or the astral claws mixed force during the badab war


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:56 pm 
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I think the list is okay for occasional friendly games, however I think the act of balancing the list for tournament play will render it somewhat less flexible than it is currently which will probably please no-one.... as a list for campaign/friendly/alternative scenario play, I'm all in favour, after all, the disparate elements of the imperium's forces DO fight together on a more than occasional basis, however I just don't see the list being balanced AND retaining the flavour and flexibilty that people would like from it myself

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:11 pm 
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btw, if it's a list for gaming with friends, why it's in the 2014 compedium? I know it's experimental, but the tyranids also experimental, and they are allowed in tournaments.

If you want to keep it in the compedium, please refresh it! now it's a bit overpowered, and still available..


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:37 pm 
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No experimental lists are allowed in tournaments i think?..

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:05 am 
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That's up to the organizer. However experimental tend to be excluded by most.

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:54 am 
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well, nids are only experimental in NetEA..

so, should we expect an updated list? just the main things, that we discussed..


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:39 am 
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Nids are approved.

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:52 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Nids are approved.

Yeah they just haven't been added to the tornament pack/compendium yet.


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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:28 am 
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Combining Guard and Marine formations has some limited background justification, as fredmans and GLynG point out, so looking at those instances might be a nice place to start. Forgeworld has a list called 'the Tyrant's Legion' which was basically marines leading guard in the Badab War. There's a good summary on this blog here; with the relevant list copied below.

Such a list could easily stand in for most mixed forces like Ultramar PDF, desperate last stands, newly-renegade marines, remnant forces cut off from re-supply and so forth.

My suggestions for further development of the Saranes Expanse list would be to make some sweeping changes, starting with changing the name (which is a nice name, but as GlynG notes, doesn't really evoke any recognition).

The critical change would be to ensure that the list has as many weaknesses as strengths. I'd start by having no access to Supreme Commander (representing the disruption to the command chain – what little background there is about Space Marines leading Guard mentions that the force suffered from low morale as the Marines pushed the humans too hard).

The poorer morale/command chain could be represented through a number of means:
1) Smaller formations so that they break more quickly.
2) No/limited access to characters for inspiring/leader.
These would have quite a few knock-on effects and go a long way to making the army less reliable.

Secondly, I'd give the whole army a SR of 2 and Initiative of 3. However, to give the list a unique flavour, I'd suggest adding in a special rule that the army can – at the start of the turn – elect to use a SR of 5 and Initiative of 2 for the turn; but that all formations not made up completely of Space Marines take a blast marker. Simple to explain, disrupts the army, but allows the marines to do heroic things in a pinch. It'd need playtesting, and not sure it's necessary, but would help give the list a flavour of its own.

Thirdly I'd ensure that there must be an emphasis on Tactical Space Marine Formations (Tac) and Imperial Guard Infantry Formations (Inf) and restrict the more exotic elements by splitting the other formations into three groups:
1) Guard Support formations (0–2 per Inf), which would contain things like Leman Russ platoons (3 Leman Russ), Artillery platoon (3 Basilisks), Heavy Weapon Platoons (4 Heavy Weapon stands) etc.
2) Space Marine Support formations (0–1 per Tac), which would contain things like Devastator groups (4 Devastator Stands), Bikes (4 Bikes) etc.
3) Special Issue Support (0–1 for every 2 Guard Support AND 1 Space Marine Support choices taken), which would include the really specialised stuff like Terminators, Superheavies and Artillery companies.

This would mean you'd be forced to take a Tactical Company and one Spae Marine Support formation; plus a Guard Infantry formation and two Guard Support Formations before you'd be able to get access to a single superheavy/specialised choice.

It would also ensure that you have to take basic Marine infantry to get Marine specialists; and basic Guard infantry to get Guard specialist equipment.


+++
Quote:
HQ
- Huron
- Commodus
- Centurion - A Centurion must be taken as a compulsory choice in games of 1500 or above. He's basically a veteran marine with 2 wounds and has access to melee, pistol and combi weapons.
- Auxilia command squad - basically an Imperial Guard command squad with the option to upgrade the HQ model from a 2 to 3 wound version and also take options such as combat shields. They have a rule allowing all human Auxilia in 18" to use their leadership.

Elites

- Corpse taker - an apothecary with 2-9 servitors that can take power weapons. Any enemy or friendly space marine (i.e. have ATSKNF) units wiped out within 6" will grant an extra victory point on a roll of 6.
- Marauders - basically veterans humans with WS4 and 2A and a 2-wound sergeant. They have the option to take up to 2 3-wound brutes, with S/T4 but lower BS (they are bulky and rend). There are special weapon options and the leader has pistol, melee and ++ save options. They may never regroup and can choose from 3 veteran options - outflank, stealth and move through cover; furious charge and crusader; carapace armour and krak grenades.
- Retaliators - veteran space marines with combat shields and void hardened armour - effectively a close combat squad that can take a special weapon and has pistol/melee options for the sergeant.

Dedicated transports

- Chimera
- Trojan - can grant a single vehicle within 6" preferred enemy. Transports 6 models.
- Lighter - a flyer that can transport 12 models and can take a variety or weapons, but all of them may only fire snap shots all the time.
- Rhino/razorback

Troops

- Legion space marines - pretty much the same as a normal squad except for every 5 models (20 max) you may equip a variety of special, heavy and melee weapons.
- Legion Auxilia - 20-40 cheap and cheerful 6+ save conscripts effectively. The prefect (sergeant) keeps them in the fight morale wise even if below 25%
- Auxilia armsmen - more like a normal imperial guard squad that can re-roll 1's to hit while shooting but not charge that turn if they remain stationary.

Fast Attack

- Legion Iron Hunters - bike squad with counter attack
- Auxilia Hellhounds
- Legion sentry guns - taratulas.
- Maelstrom Lighters - squadron of 1-3 that operate independently

Heavy Support

- Battle tanks - 1-3 leman russ BT / annihilator / exterminator
- Air defence - 1-3 hydras
- Siege defence 1-3 medusas / thunderers / basilisks
- Auxilia fire support - basically heavy weapon squads with a 6+ save
- Maelstrom fleet gunships - 1-3 vultures
- Maelstrom Naval detachment - one choice from either a Lightning, Thunderbolt or Avenger.
- Auxilia heavy ordnance - 1-3 earthshaker or medusa carriages
- Auxilia Rapiers - operated by guardsmen
(Tyrants legion support - may include options from codex SM as long as they don't exceed the number of Tyrants legion HS choices and at least one SM troop choice is taken as above)

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:20 pm 
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I can get behind that concepts. Perhaps no SC is taking it a bit far though. I'd suggest that a Guard SC but their reroll cannot be used on Marines. This works as the division of power in the Imperium is specificallydesigned to keep astartes and guard in seperate command structures.

. There's so many mentioned Imperial Crusades in the fluff that taking the name from one of them might be nice. Hell take.the most known one, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, and call it good or just genericize it to Imperial Crsade lust.

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 Post subject: Re: The Saranes Expanse - dead/dormant/alive?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Having no supreme commander is absolutely a no go! :D

I still support the mainly IG and some basic SM units concept, not too much specialized stuff.. should keep the special rules limited, having not to many of them! Just keep it an almost normal IG list, with a few not-specialized SM units, like Tac Marines! And maybe drop pods, which are goodnext to the static concept of the IG armies..


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