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For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x

 Post subject: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Ok, here we go.

Before you just download the list and start ripping it to shreds, here are a couple of comments/points to reflect on.

DESIGN NOTES:

1. The 2.x series of lists were based on Imperial Armor 3 - The Taros Campaign. Since then FW has come out with IA8 - Raid on Kastorel-Novem. The new 40K list is intended to replace the old IA3 list, though no mention is made of IA4. In following FWs lead, this list has also been upgraded to represent the most current version. What about the old list, I hear you say? More on that later.

2. After evaluating the basic differences between the two 40K lists and how they were represented in the 2.x series, I didn't feel like a lot of the 40K changes (e.g. IG platoon structure) affected the basic way the 2.x series worked. Yes, it was possible to fiddle with it, but in reality, the existing Epic structure seems to work pretty well as a emulation of the Elysian fluff. So I kept that and refined from there vs. redesigning the entire list. The baby seems to be Ok and the bath water is still warm.

3. From an infantry structure, the biggest noticeable change from a macro level is the ability to attach Sentinels to the platoon, the move of Sentinels to an "elite" slot vs. their previous Fast Attack slot. At a high level, I interpreted that to be greater access to Sentinels. The other noticeable change at a macro level (see the trend ::) ) is a move to more close support weaponry for the Sentinels (2 out of 3 choices). So, that was reflected as an upgrade to Drop Companies along as being able to select them as a support choice.

4. By now I'm sure you want to know about the new stuff. I am not intentionally delaying any mention of all the new kewl/hawt toys FW gave us to be mean...think of it as a typical cinematic device for increasing viewer attention during an important part of the movie.

5. New vehicles: I have included the Tauros, Tauros Venator, Valkyrie Sky Talon, Vendetta, and the intriguing (at least to me) Punisher cannon armed Vulture. I'll talk about those as separate points below.

6. Tauros/Tauros Venator: I took a simple approach to these. In essence, they are a light scouting vehicle and I allow you to take either flavor in a squadron of four. I used a little AC privilege here to give the Tauros the Tauros Grenade Launcher and give you the choice of AP strong or AT strong Venators. The reason for the upgrade on the Tauros is that it makes two types of vehicles nearly the same cost (5 pts difference in 40K) and allows you to tailor your scouting force in a couple of different ways.

I know there are no vehicles yet, but perhaps someone will...uh, "help" out there (looks at E&C/Otterman).

7. The Vendetta: I think this will provide the Elysians with some interesting AT options and with the standard Valkyrie as configured for Epic costing the same as a Vendetta (in 40K), I opted to go with simple and allow for a swap out, one for one. Let the modeling opportunities proceed.

8. The Valkyrie Sky Talon: At the end of the day, this vehicle looks like an Epic Valkyrie, is armed the same as an Epic Valkyrie, so that's how I handled it. Short story: It is a transport option for Sentinels and the new Tauros suite of vehicles. Pure and simple.

9. The new Vulture: With the ability to have more AT in your formations, I kind of wondered what would happen to our wonderful Vultures. Then I realized that in my 40K Elysian army, I couldn't wait to get some of the new Punisher cannons to play with. So, I'm not surprised if I generate a few extra electrons on this one. It is a concept I would like to test out and see if it is viable. I plan on testing it out, I would appreciate if others do as well.

Just for reference, in 40K, the Punisher cannon has a range of 24 inches, shoots 20 shots at a higher than normal strength (S5). The Vulture can carry two of these to give them 20 twin-linked shots. That's why I set the initial values where I did. The other thing I did was add a cost to taking these, whereas in 40K they are actually one of the more cheaper builds.

So I'm not saying it's configured correctly right now, but it's what came to mind.

10. And now for the one point that Moscovian really cares about. Support Sentinels. They're gone. <imagines head sploding>. Ok, let's take a deep breath and let me run something by you. This list is intended to get us current. However, there may be a reason why someone wants to run the Taros campaign set, so I'm not going to just trash it.

Since that list was very close to being frozen and if not a tad underwhelming in competitive play, I will dress it up and make it current as part of this effort. That way, if you want to play historical Tau/Taros Campaign battles, you can. If you want to play the most up to date version, you will be able to do that as well.

11. Mortars and Commissars: These items have been updated per the thread that Moscovian started awhile back.

So, there you go. I'm sure there will be some comments on things not in the list, in particularly the Sentry guns or Cyclops. At a macro level, I could say that they are already figured into the existing values of the Elysian platoons. So "Poof" all handled. As far as the Sentry guns go...I know they are there, I just don't see them as a defining unit/formation for the Elysians. When I think of Elysians, I think of Valks, people dropping out of the sky, and now Rat Patrol dune buggies. I just don't think Sentry guns.

Bonus Item: Garrison. It is back in the list for the 3.x series. The Raid on Kastorel-Novem very clearly shows the Elysians in "garrison" type duties (in particular Shield force). Now, I'm not really going to comment on whether I thought that was a particularly smart way to use valuable resources (in fact, I felt it was just the opposite, Oops! I commented), but it is clear that it is an option that should be available for the upgraded list.

To make changes easier to spot, I have highlighted them in blue.

I'm looking forward to the discussion.

Cheers,

Honda


Attachments:
Elysian_Drop_Troop_Army_List_v3.1.5_-_070411.pdf [65.94 KiB]
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Last edited by Honda_reloaded on Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Nice, I don't really have much background knowledge to add but I noticed some odd items.

Why are mortars range 20cm?? That number just bothers me, why not 15cm or 25cm or 30cm?? Maybe a typo?

Why can the Valkyrie transport a Tauros but not a Sentinel?? Odd...? Shouldn't the Sky Ray be needed to transport either vehicle?

Can either Drop Company add more Transports?? Or If i take upgrades I have to be on foot or teleport? I can't take Fire Support and buy an extra Valkyrie?? Typo?

Also the wording for how many Support Companies you may take is unclear. I know what you mean but to a newbie it might be confusing...

Thanks for the work Honda...!

Btw...you should get your old Account to work, just bug CS.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:12 am 
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I don't have time at the moment to have more than a quick look through of your notes and list sorry (and I've yet to read the latest FW book anyway) but good work on this from what I can see. I like the addition of the Punishers :)

I'd like to give the list a try sometime, if I I can find/recruit any epic players around Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (where I'm moving to in a few days) anyway. Particularly if nice modeller(s) create some nice proxies :)


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:28 am 
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Typo on infantry units : type : Infanty

Elysian Mortar Squad : range : only 20cm ? not 30cm ??

Tauros (Venator) Squadron : why "Squadron" in the profile name ? There is only one vehicle in the base, isn't there ?

Tauros Venator : Twin-linked multilasers should be "AP4+/AT5+", and the Twin-linked lascannons should be "AT4+"

A dedicate profile box for the Vendetta should be more clear : the 3x twin-linked lascannons replace the 2x Rocket Launchers ? the 2x rocket launchers + 2x Heavy Bolters ? or both plus the multilaser ?

Same possible confusion with the weaponnery of the Vulture. At least, some words in the profile nots should explain, like for the SM Dreadnought.

Lunar cruiser has only 1 pin-point attack (but with 2 pin-point attacks, I could consider spending 150pts in it !)

Marauder Destroyer : there is no "Rear 180", but "Rear Arc".

Page 12/18 : what means the "75, 91.67" ? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:01 am 
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No 0-1 restriction on Regimental HQ?

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:58 am 
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Quote:
Nice, I don't really have much background knowledge to add but I noticed some odd items.


That’s why we’re doing this.

Quote:
Why are mortars range 20cm?? That number just bothers me, why not 15cm or 25cm or 30cm?? Maybe a typo?


No it was intentional. In the rather long discussion on this particular unit, a general number was not arrived at. I just threw something on there because there were some comments about doubling and then the mortar getting to shoot.

Anyway, I’m open to what you think the number should be.

Quote:
Why can the Valkyrie transport a Tauros but not a Sentinel?? Odd...? Shouldn't the Sky Ray be needed to transport either vehicle?


I think they got a dose of reality for this. I’m just borrowing what is in the IA8 book.

It is quite feasible that the Tauros can fit inside of a Valkyrie, but there really isn’t a way to get the Sentinel in there, it’s too tall. The Sky Talon has an open back carriage which will allow the carrying of the larger vehicle.

Quote:
Can either Drop Company add more Transports?? Or If i take upgrades I have to be on foot or teleport? I can't take Fire Support and buy an extra Valkyrie?? Typo?


Nope, that’s by design. In playtesting, it was discovered that by allowing all the upgrades to take Valks, you end up with this monster alpha strike formation because of the huge number of BPs you can get. So the decision was made to allow for smaller Valk transportable formations or larger drop formations. In the IA8 list, this translates to Vet squads which are more expensive to have dedicated Valks (the smaller formation) and Infantry platoons have to walk or deep strike (i.e. teleport).

Quote:
Also the wording for how many Support Companies you may take is unclear. I know what you mean but to a newbie it might be confusing...


Old verbiage. Corrected. Thanx!


Quote:
Typo on infantry units : type : Infanty


Boy, isn’t cut n’ paste wonderful. I sure had that in there a few times, didn’t I?

Quote:
Tauros (Venator) Squadron : why "Squadron" in the profile name ? There is only one vehicle in the base, isn't there ?


They can be purchased in squadrons, so no, it does not have to be a single vehicle.

Quote:
Tauros Venator : Twin-linked multilasers should be "AP4+/AT5+", and the Twin-linked lascannons should be "AT4+"


Got it.

Quote:
A dedicate profile box for the Vendetta should be more clear : the 3x twin-linked lascannons replace the 2x Rocket Launchers ? the 2x rocket launchers + 2x Heavy Bolters ? or both plus the multilaser ?

Same possible confusion with the weaponnery of the Vulture. At least, some words in the profile nots should explain, like for the SM Dreadnought.


Added extra verbiage to notes to make it clearer.

Quote:
Lunar cruiser has only 1 pin-point attack (but with 2 pin-point attacks, I could consider spending 150pts in it !)


Done

Quote:
Marauder Destroyer : there is no "Rear 180", but "Rear Arc".


Done

Quote:
Page 12/18 : what means the "75, 91.67" ?


Not sure on this one, will check with the pdf guy.

I'll let the comments run for a few days and then get an updated version uploaded by mid-week or so.

Thanx for the C&C!

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:59 am 
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Oh, and I fixed the 0-1 Regimental HQ thing as well. Good catch!

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:21 am 
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I'd keep 30cm on the mortar as the Catachans have a mortar too so parity between unit types is a good thing.

One thing that really sticks out to me is the Iron discipline rule. Are Elysian troops more elite than Space Marine leaders that essentially have iron discipline and hundreds of years of experience?


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:34 am 
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Hey Dobbsy,

Iron Discipline originated from the previous version of IG codex where you could tailor your army by giving them specific characteristics, tactics, or weapons. In the upgraded codeci, FW has decided to retain these characteristics to differentiate their armies (Krieg, Elysians, Tallarn) from bog standard Cadians.

So the description of the ID is a pretty straightforward translation to Epic. From a fluff perspective, the Elysians are described as either dying to a man and/or staying in combat beyond normal expectations (paraphrasing slightly). Basically they don't rout or run away due to their elite nature.

As a game effect it is used to help the usually smaller formations hang tough. There was an additional effect to Iron Discipline whereby it took +1 extra BM to break, which I decided to yank as most people (sometimes even me) neglect to use. So the rule has been toned down a bit in this version.

However, I don't think that the effect elevates them into the realms of the Astartes...at least it hasn't had that effect on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:59 am 
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I'm in favour of these changes. :)

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:13 am 
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Much to digest.
I will adress all things from up to down in the list.
Armylist:
- Regimetal HQ should be a 0-1 choice.
- I gave the Punisher Cannon "only" 3 shots.
- Why do the Drop Sentinels get 4 Sky Talons? A Sky Talon can transport 2 Drop Sentinels.

Units:
- Why is Iron Discipline a unit ability as it seems to be an army wide special rule?
- 20cm for Mortars is really short. Exact translation would be 45cm but 30cm seems more balancing.
- Remove the word "Squadron" form the Tauros and Tauros Venator profiles as the profiles refer to single vehicles.
- Why only a 6+ save for both Tauros? All Speed 35cm Light Vehicles have at least a 4+ save due to their high manouverabilty. I would give them at least a 5+ save (see Ork Buggies and Skorchas)
- No Scout for Tauros and Tauros Venator? Why?
- Tauros Venator's Twin Multilaser should be AP4+/AT5+, Twin Lascannon should be AT4+
- Wording on the Valkyrie/Vendetta weapons is fuzzy. Are all weapons replaced for 3 x Twin Lascannons or only the Rocked Pods? I guess all are replaced?
- Why can the Valkyrie/Vendetta transport a Tauros? They aren't able to do this in Wh40k. Only the Sky Talon can transport Tauros, Tauros Venator and Drop Sentinels.
- Luna Cruiseris supposed to have only 1 Pin-point Attack
- Marauder Destroyer has a Twin Assault Cannon, not 2 x Assault Cannon. Also the Fire Arc should say Rear Fiore Arc.

Thats all :)

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Had a quick look, a couple of points:

I like the change to lightnings, making them more of a dogfighter (better AA, removed AP/AT) I think good CAP is very important for armies with no ground based flak, I have previously suggested the catachans get lightnings like the elysians as they are both low on AA cover, with these more focused AA lightnings I further agree.

Mortars: Range decisions aside, I like the -ignores LOS bit, the previous catachan/elysian -Indirect Fire designation was awkward as it was unclear whether the range doubling/min range aspects applied. ie Clear and simple = good.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Quote:
Armylist:
- Regimetal HQ should be a 0-1 choice.
- I gave the Punisher Cannon "only" 3 shots.


The Regimental HQ has been fixed. The Punisher had to start somewhere, so I picked 4 shots, primarily because we quartered the Hellstrikes on the Marauder Destroyer. It’s Ok, we have room to fiddle.



Quote:
- Why do the Drop Sentinels get 4 Sky Talons? A Sky Talon can transport 2 Drop Sentinels.


I was thinking about that last night. It’s just a copy and paste thing. A Sky Talon can carry 2 Sentinels.

Quote:
Units:
- Why is Iron Discipline a unit ability as it seems to be an army wide special rule?


I’m not following you. It is defined as an army rule. Could you elaborate please?

Quote:
- 20cm for Mortars is really short. Exact translation would be 45cm but 30cm seems more balancing.


Yes, 30cm seems to be the consensus value, so I will update the list.

Quote:
- Why only a 6+ save for both Tauros? All Speed 35cm Light Vehicles have at least a 4+ save due to their high manouverabilty. I would give them at least a 5+ save (see Ork Buggies and Skorchas)


1. They’re brand new and have to start somewhere. 2. It was late. 3. We have room to adjust the values. So for 150 pts, make me an offer I can’t refuse.

Quote:
- No Scout for Tauros and Tauros Venator? Why?


See above. Less intention, more of where should we start with these. If after discussing we think the values should be X, Y, and Z, then I will update. This version needs our vetting before it goes into testing, which is what we are doing.

Quote:
- Tauros Venator's Twin Multilaser should be AP4+/AT5+, Twin Lascannon should be AT4+
- Wording on the Valkyrie/Vendetta weapons is fuzzy. Are all weapons replaced for 3 x Twin Lascannons or only the Rocked Pods? I guess all are replaced?


Agreed and corrected (see previous post).


Quote:
- Why can the Valkyrie/Vendetta transport a Tauros? They aren't able to do this in Wh40k.


Actually that’s not quite correct. If you look on page 100, it states that the Tauros may be transported by a Valkyrie squadron.


Quote:
- Luna Cruiseris supposed to have only 1 Pin-point Attack
- Marauder Destroyer has a Twin Assault Cannon, not 2 x Assault Cannon. Also the Fire Arc should say Rear Fiore Arc.


Corrected. Thanx!

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Honda_reloaded wrote:
Quote:
Units:
- Why is Iron Discipline a unit ability as it seems to be an army wide special rule?

I’m not following you. It is defined as an army rule. Could you elaborate please?

Some units have in their notes "Iron Discipline".
It would be like some Space Marines had in their notes "ATSKNF" : it is useless, the special rule concerns every unit of the army (except Allies).


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:40 pm 
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@Iron Disciple: What Flogus said.

@Valkyrie/Vendetta and Tauros: Surely it is a typo as common with FW books? The Valkyrie and Vendetta are stated that they can transport 12 models. Nothing about a Tauros or Drop Sentinel.
An other proof: You can't purchase Valykries in Squadrons. Only Vendettas can be purchased in Squadrons. Valkyries are always Dedicated Transports, one for each Squad.

@Tauros/Venatior stats: Ok let's start with your stats and then see if we should change them :)

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