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Cadian Shock Troops v1.5

 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:29 pm 
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I think 175 is priced pretty good, and to be honest I like the degree of flexibility for once. Otherwise all list boil down to three nearly default choices in Core and all the fun happening in Support where the army then gets its flavour...

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Largo_W wrote:
I think 175 is priced pretty good, and to be honest I like the degree of flexibility for once. Otherwise all list boil down to three nearly default choices in Core and all the fun happening in Support where the army then gets its flavour...


Well, taking into account that many of the lists approved in the last years only have two core options if not only one, three would be a big improvement already.

Jokes aside, this list has more than three and good lists achieve the flavour with the core choices, and the support and extras are the spices. The problem of the Kasrkin is not their priciing which is correct but that 175 points core choices is that support is a lot more important than in any other list, which is even worse given that this is IG and needs even more points on the core choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:33 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
RugII wrote:
Personally, I’d like to see the Kasrkin core formation and the Mechanised Kasrkin formation in the support section swapped around. As it is 175pts is too cheap for a core formation and leaves no reason to take a regular 250pt Infantry Company.


I was the one who stirred the discussion last time, but if it implies such a big change as deleting the option of a on foot based army, how about this? Infantry companies are often seen as slightly overpriced to deal with this exact same situation. If it is the case, why not overprice the Kasrkin to 200, and MAYBE, and only MAYBE lower the Infantry Company to 225 to compensate and make it appetizing compared with the Kasrkin. While we are adding back a problem, 225 is a lot less of an issue than 175, and would help the problem about choosing between Kasrkin and Infantry Company.


I’m glad you stirred discussion on this aspect of the list, it’s the only sticking point both balance wise and thematically.

At this stage we can’t explore reducing the standard Infantry Company, it’s shared across too many lists where it isn’t a major problem and the all IG lists rely on a common building block structure. I’d rather get this list across the line and look at the cost of the Infantry Company in our best established and understood list - Steel Legion.

A foot based army would still be doable, just not a foot based Kasrkin army

I would have serious reservations about a Guard core formation being less than 250pts, and this is a Cadian list rather than a Kasrkin/Tempestus list so Cadian infantry (rather than elites) need to be centre stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:38 am 
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Please don't change this list around too much guys

It's great as is and sees regular play in Australia at tournaments!


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:07 am 
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Having re-read a few pages back about the kasrkin-inf coy ratio, I took the liberty of writing a quick proposal making the Kasrkin Company mechanized. (Later discussion if Valkyries should be an option here or a specialized Support Formation.)

COMPANIES
0-1 Cadian egimental HQ // Supreme Commander + 7 Kasrkin + Leviathan // 550 pts
Upgrades: all
Cadian Infantry Company // IG Commander + 12 Infatry // 250 pts
Upgrades: all
Cadian Kasrkin Company // Kasrkin Commander + Transport // 175 + Transport option.
Transport, choose one: 4 Chimeras @ +75 pts, 4 Valkyries @ +125 pts, Stormlord @ + 150 pts
Upgrades: all

COMPANY UPGRADES
Fire Support (unchanged)
Psykers (unchanged)
Sabre Platforms (unchanged)
Infantry Platoon (unchanged)
Snipers (unchanged)
Assault Transports (unchanged)
Kasrkin Platoon // +4 units @ 75 pts (lowered from 100 pts in the 1.56)
Whiteshields // +8 units @ free, changes initiative to 3+ (as long as any "shield" is still left)

SUPPORT FORMATIONS
Unchanged, except Remove Mechanized Kasrkin OR substitute it for a footslogging Kasrkin company, or the Valkyrie one.


Another options is perhaps to only allow Sabre Platforms to Infantry Companies and not to Kasrkin. Imho, the kasrkin-spam is mostly a problem when fielded loaded with AA.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:40 am 
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Elrik, if this was a vote you’d have mine!

With the changes you propose for the Core Kasrkin there’d probably be no need to change which formations can take Sabres.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:12 pm 
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this
Largo_W wrote:
I think 175 is priced pretty good, and to be honest I like the degree of flexibility for once. Otherwise all list boil down to three nearly default choices in Core and all the fun happening in Support where the army then gets its flavour...


and this
Mard wrote:
Please don't change this list around too much guys

It's great as is and sees regular play in Australia at tournaments!

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:56 pm 
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What is so bad when some people prefer the Kasrkin over regular Guard again? Isn't this a very clear theme already? People who want the regular inf get a pretty good benefit from it, more stands and more range

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Largo_W wrote:
What is so bad when some people prefer the Kasrkin over regular Guard again? Isn't this a very clear theme already? People who want the regular inf get a pretty good benefit from it, more stands and more range


If it was simply down to preference that’d be fine, but going full Kasrkin is just so much more powerful than using any standard Cadian Infantry. The big issue is the fact the core Kasrkin formation is only 175pts leading to extremely high activation popcorn lists.

This is an extreme 18 activation 3000pts list but still has AA, a tough BTS, and loads of fire power:

HQ + Sabres
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin

Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels

Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts

I think it’d be worthwhile going down to 17 activations to exchange some Cadian Sentinels for Griffin Batteries, Hydra Batteries providing more speed, and some embedded Sabres just to be difficult and shut down the air game. I might upgrade one Kasrkin to Whiteshields for more bodies too.

If you look back through the thread I proposed a similar but more mechanised version of this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:55 am 
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Elrik wrote:
Cadian Kasrkin Company // Kasrkin Commander + Transport // 175 + Transport option.
Transport, choose one: 4 Chimeras @ +75 pts, 4 Valkyries @ +125 pts, Stormlord @ + 150 pts
Upgrades: all


Nice suggestion. But with a proper Kasrkin commander, I would start with a base cost of 200 pts.

Those would be very interesting options for an unique flexibility, it's quite an elite IG list anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:25 pm 
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RugII wrote:
This is an extreme 18 activation 3000pts list but still has AA, a tough BTS, and loads of fire power:

HQ + Sabres
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin

Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels

Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts


Not trying to have a go here.. but how likely is this list?
Where I'm coming from.. are there that many people who would bring this to a game? I know that unless it was the kind of thing agreed to beforehand (not sure why, but I digress) it'd be the last time I chose to play that person
What TO would let it through? Are there that many people who would return to their comp if they'd paid good money to put up with it?

Maybe it's just a difference of scene, but I've always understood the purpose of tabletop gaming to be two people taking a few hours out to have some fun. Yes, competitiveness is part of it, but if you're building a list solely on the premise that "that guy" is out there, has not the purpose of the game already been lost?

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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:02 pm 
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fruitbat wrote:
RugII wrote:
This is an extreme 18 activation 3000pts list but still has AA, a tough BTS, and loads of fire power:

HQ + Sabres
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin

Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels

Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts


Not trying to have a go here.. but how likely is this list?
Where I'm coming from.. are there that many people who would bring this to a game? I know that unless it was the kind of thing agreed to beforehand (not sure why, but I digress) it'd be the last time I chose to play that person
What TO would let it through? Are there that many people who would return to their comp if they'd paid good money to put up with it?

Maybe it's just a difference of scene, but I've always understood the purpose of tabletop gaming to be two people taking a few hours out to have some fun. Yes, competitiveness is part of it, but if you're building a list solely on the premise that "that guy" is out there, has not the purpose of the game already been lost?


It doesn’t happen often but that makes it all the more annoying when it does. Regardless, our task is to write an army list that is both fluffy and balanced against the other NetEA lists, if we’re going to go on trust for the balance bit we’re doing the other list testers a disservice and wasting our time.

I listed 18 activations to make a point, if you drop a unit or two of Sentinels and a formation of Thunderbolts you’d have the points to upgrade some of the remaining units making the list more reasonable, though it would still be OP. Something like:

HQ + Sabres
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Kasrkin
Whiteshields

Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Cadian Sentinels
Griffin Battery
Hydra Battery
Shadowsword
Deathstrike Missiles

Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts

15 activations, including a 600pt Void Shielded, Reinforced Armour, Fearless BTS with unsuppressable organic AA, 4 Garrisons, Titan Killer weapons, aircraft, a 6BP mobile artillery formation. The point is that as is Cadian armies are likely to be defined by lots of activations generated by cheap Kasrkin core formations.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:10 pm 
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And where's the problem with that?

It plays very differently to the other guard lists, which is a good thing.
It holds it's own without being too OP, in fact can actually play aginst experienced eldar and Necron players.

It actually let's you bring a well balanced army to do decently against a wide arange of foes at a tourney without being OTP


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:12 am 
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The ERC is not going to approve a list that can have up to 21 half decent activations (Only 16 if you want to include a Warlord Titan!).

We can’t go on trust no one is going to do it, we’ve got big international tournaments to consider these days, it will happen and annoy a lot of people.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadian Shock Troops v1.5
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:47 am 
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Cadian Sentinels are not what I would call a decent formation, its 6 stands of non-scout non-garrisson LV with a moderate gun and a speed of 20

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