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Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu lists

 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:22 am 
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A couple of things -

Firstly Rug has been around longer than his RugII status suggests is a good/excellent players that has frustrated me more times than I care to admit and has a good eye for lists. It is my belief that his work on the IG over the past couple of years is an example to all AC. It is a pity that the loss of his original account has meant the loss of a lot of old discussions.

Rug has submitted proposals to E-UK which we are taking our time over considering. This is not because we have any issues with the changes it is just that we have limited availability to run our own testing at the moment - holidays et al. you know.

Please bear with us and Rug as this process proceeds. We believe that getting parity for lists is to all our benefits.

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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:07 am 
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RugII wrote:
... and get me setup up again as RugII.


I think it is cool having "Rug the second" as AC. It brings a authority and a venerable and regal aura to the posts ;)

Aside from that I really like the proposed changes to IG. And thumbs up if the same changes are made to Euk and Netea at the same time. Having the oldest and "core" lists (IG, Codex Marines, Orks and perhaps Biel-tan) identical is a good idea for keeping the balance between the two "systems".


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:17 am 
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Hey guys, don't get me wrong here the proposals for testing are great. The UK produce great lists for the competitive environment of tournaments.

I was also informed Rugs a vet and very competent player before this came about.

Rugs personal grudge against mordoten or the NDC is what concerns me. The amount of work mordoten put in was outstanding. All those post, the messages gathering a following, the hours put into writing everything up. Going through all the posts for proposals for each step. The votes, posting all the results. Posting every step to taccoms for transparency.

The end result saw a lot of stuff that comes up in posts all the time on this forum addressed. A lot of other i must admit. But i haven't really seen anyone complaining about the results.

Everyone would and is agreeing holding off on steel legion for what the UK has already been working on is totally worth it, it could have been included if it was proposed, you would have got a lot of bonus test games out of it.

Also If you had no personal grudge or what ever it is going on I'm sure you would have at least put single warhounds removed from the Death Korps list to the ERC to gain parity with the UK like your trying to achieve. Its been posted there's concerns of it being over the top and obviously the same thought in the UK. Theres no reason for you not to.

Keen to see how the steel legion proposals turn out.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:41 pm 
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I think you may be reading into things more than there is in reality.

regardless, I'm excited for EUK + NetEA alignment as well as the good work you, mordoten, and the rest of the NDC did. Don't think we need to shit-stir here folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:44 pm 
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I messaged Matt-Shadoword about the Kreig changes on Sunday.

The Kreig and Siege Masters NDC proposals have been with the ERC since Monday morning.

After the SL changes are final and through focus will move on to Kreig, Siege Masters, & Minervans. The objective will not be parity with EUK for Kreig and Minervans but maybe consistency in points costs, i.e AA batteries, Death Riders etc if it is appropriate and/or beneficial for balance. Otherwise changes will be minimal to keep up to date with SL changes, the plan is to stick to the intent of the most recent list Champion whether active or not.

It may be possible to achieve EUK NetEA parity with the Siegemaster list.

Lists beyond those mentioned need more than a light touch from the faction champion and community, new list champions will be required where existing ones have gone dormant, we'll then focus on them one or two at a time almost certainly starting with the Cadians


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Glad to hear Cadians are on your short list. I've been working on the Vassal module specifically to easier support that list recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:37 am 
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+1 on that. I'll gladly help with the Cadians.


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:05 am 
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Elrik wrote:
+1 on that. I'll gladly help with the Cadians.


I've talked to Evil&Chaos and he's agreed to Champion the Cadians through another round of refinement, I'm sure he'd appreciate all the help he can get!


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:06 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Glad to hear Cadians are on your short list. I've been working on the Vassal module specifically to easier support that list recently.


I don't forsee any major changes if that helps!


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:24 am 
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As regards Krieg I prefer the detail and extra units (Engineers, DS silo, Macharius Command Tank, Trojans, ect) in the Net-EA version but I’d be happy to see balance adjustments carried across to tone down the power of the list. After Death Korps won Britcon yet again it sounds like there will be further nerf(s) to the Epic-UK Krieg list - I’m hoping for something effecting the Gorgons again as they’re still pretty much auto-take units in the Epic list whilen background wise and in 40k Krieg are a static trench building artillery army that only very rarely do massed Gorgon assaults to attack enemy positions (and if possible only after spending years - literally - pounding these positions with artillery first).

Getting parity with the Death Riders is more complicated because Matt Shadowlord gave the companies walker. I find it kind bizarre and inappropriate that a massed company of 50 odd cavalry charging in close formation is way better at picking it way through woods and ruins than regular spread out scouting Rough Riders though and I’d really like to see walker rescinded. 275 seems too cheap for the company too, though it rarely gets taken in Epic-UK taken at 325 and 300 IMO would be a good compromise for both.

I was a big advocate when the list was being developed for changing Marauders to be the 2DC WE the FW models easily justify and hoped this would become a wider change through other lists. Given this never happened and isn’t going to I’d rather scrap the (fictional) ‘heavy marauder’ and switch the list to have regular Marauders instead. I did once abuse it in a game too by taking 6 x 150 point single WE Heavy Marauders and massed 60cm ground AA. If memory serves I came up against a titan legion, so they didn’t achieve much, but vs an army with not so much AA (and with some Krieg ground artillery units to supress that also) it could potentially be abusive IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:41 pm 
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RugII wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
Glad to hear Cadians are on your short list. I've been working on the Vassal module specifically to easier support that list recently.


I don't forsee any major changes if that helps!


it does! ;D
thanks, mate!


GlynG wrote:
I’m hoping for something effecting the Gorgons again as they’re still pretty much auto-take units in the Epic list whilen background wise and in 40k Krieg are a static trench building artillery army that only very rarely do massed Gorgon assaults to attack enemy positions (and if possible only after spending years - literally - pounding these positions with artillery first).


The defensive siege / infantry hoarde list though already exists in the BSM so having the DKoK list here being the more breakthrough/assault themed one makes sense. I don't care that gorgons are auto-include. I'd care that they're prone to producing silly deathstars from (thank goodness the +10 infanty +gorgon codshite was killed off). Seems that instead we need to put things like the kibosh on the warhound and other point tweaks vs untheming the list.

GlynG wrote:
Getting parity with the Death Riders is more complicated because Matt Shadowlord gave the companies walker. I find it kind bizarre and inappropriate that a massed company of 50 odd cavalry charging in close formation is way better at picking it way through woods and ruins than regular spread out scouting Rough Riders though and I’d really like to see walker rescinded. 275 seems too cheap for the company too, though it rarely gets taken in Epic-UK taken at 325 and 300 IMO would be a good compromise for both.

I was a big advocate when the list was being developed for changing Marauders to be the 2DC WE the FW models easily justify and hoped this would become a wider change through other lists. Given this never happened and isn’t going to I’d rather scrap the (fictional) ‘heavy marauder’ and switch the list to have regular Marauders instead. I did once abuse it in a game too by taking 6 x 150 point single WE Heavy Marauders and massed 60cm ground AA. If memory serves I came up against a titan legion, so they didn’t achieve much, but vs an army with not so much AA (and with some Krieg ground artillery units to supress that also) it could potentially be abusive IMO.


I cannot agree more with GlynG about the fake marauders. it doesn't break any collections to make them "regular" ones. I don't have a lot of experience with death riders but I have to say and why do they have this? when it comes to walker as well. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can help out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:08 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
The defensive siege / infantry hoarde list though already exists in the BSM so having the DKoK list here being the more breakthrough/assault themed one makes sense. I don't care that gorgons are auto-include. I'd care that they're prone to producing silly deathstars from (thank goodness the +10 infanty +gorgon codshite was killed off). Seems that instead we need to put things like the kibosh on the warhound and other point tweaks vs untheming the list.


IMO the list was (and should be) designed to flexibly either be run defensively and/or offensively but if you read the Vraks books backgroundwise Krieg are very very strongly static and defensive themed. A defensive trench Krieg list is similar to a BSM one in some ways, but pretty different in lots of other ways so there’s a viable niche for both. Mobile Krieg is always going to a strong playstyle (just as running SM as an air assault list is) but the other should be viable too.

In terms of what is to be done yeah I agree with you - removing the option for single Warhounds and some points / options tweaks. I’d just rather localise point increases / nerfs to Gorgons rather than hypothetically nerfing the core infantry or other elements of the list as that also hurts the defensive style of the list that isn’t getting played hardly at all as is. Internal list rebalancing to allow a wider variety of units / army styles to get used is generally seen as a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:30 pm 
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The extra detail and options the NetEA Kreig list has is exactly why in this case total parity with EUK isn't what we want.

I will ask EUK if they're going to be doing any Kreig testing, it would be good to work together looking at things like Gorgons.

Single Warhounds is with the ERC.


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Just thought of a minor issue with combining the lists - what about the Warlord Titan? Net-EA Warlord dropped to 825 but Epic-UK one is 850. It's rarely taken and it is a strategy 2 army so maybe 825 here would be accepted by Epic-UK? It'd be odd to bump the price back up when all other Net-EA lists have it as 850.


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 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:36 am 
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GlynG wrote:
Just thought of a minor issue with combining the lists - what about the Warlord Titan? Net-EA Warlord dropped to 825 but Epic-UK one is 850. It's rarely taken and it is a strategy 2 army so maybe 825 here would be accepted by Epic-UK? It'd be odd to bump the price back up when all other Net-EA lists have it as 850.


*sigh* I missed that.

I'll email EUK and see what they say.


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